Clegg v Farage / LBC Debate

[tzijlstra 11]

That's because your opinion appears to be based on other peoples opinions and not facts.

 

The only thing you have brought to this discussion is... your opinion, which is based on other peoples opinions and not facts.

 

I have highlighted a number of facts to which you then replied with several rather dubious claims, which let me to stop the discussion. However, as you are baiting me, I will happily carry on the discussion and predict now that you will refute everything I say with your version of facts.

 

Yes they employ a lot of immigrants and they also treat a lot of immigrants, if they didn't have to treat immigrants they wouldn't have to employ immigrants. And leaving the EU wouldn't stop them employing Immigrants, but would leave them with fewer to treat.

 

The population in this country is in majority white English. The majority of people putting pressure on the NHS is over the age of 70 (the so-called grey wave) which is caused by ever longer lives due to improved medicine. If we plot the immigration waves we will quickly find that 70 years ago the majority of people in this country were... white English. Admittedly a rather substantial proportion decided to move to Spain *using EU rules to their benefits* but if you go to a hospital today you will find the majority of patients in long term care are indeed... white English.

 

If you talk to managers in the NHS about employing foreign nurses you will find that they will tell you that they have no option. There are not enough British nurses to turn the tide of increasing pressure on the system. If you know any nurses you will know that they have a very hard job and a lot of them actually change career before reaching retirement age because of the wear and tear that is placed on them.

 

It is a fact that many organisations have also spoken out against EU policies that adversely affect them.

Three in four British bosses want in-out vote on Europe: Support grows for quitting as companies become more Eurosceptic

It also reveals that British business is becoming more Eurosceptic with growing support for quitting the EU altogether or withdrawing and securing new trade agreements.

 

You are quoting a Daily Mail article to back up your fact. It is the one newspaper that you should not rely on when it comes to facts, certainly not about things that they deem as areas of contest. If you do, it is handy to read beyond the headline and actually pick up on the following:

 

However, the majority - or 61.4 per cent of those asked in the British Chambers of Commerce poll - wants Britain to remain in the EU with powers transferred from Brussels to Westminster.

 

Guess what the Guardian said about this poll: Facts are easily interpretable, my point I made earlier.

 

Its also a fact that it could be lower if fewer people were allowed to just turn up here and work or claim benefits.

 

There are plenty of facts to squash this statement, which is not a fact but a very clear opinion, but let me just explain frictional unemployment - unemployment that exists because a vacancy can not be filled with the right person in the right place in the right time.

 

EU immigrants are not picky about where they live/work as long as they work. They are prepared to move across the continent to find the job they want. As such they are an important factor in fighting frictional unemployment. This contrasts with local Brits who are not often keen to move for a job (particularly uneducated/low educated workers).

 

Would unemployment be lower? Perhaps, although not likely and the economy would be smaller without these migrant workers as well. As demonstrated in a recent report. Of course, the University of Oxford is a well known bastion of left wing apologists according to people opposing immigration from within the EU.

 

It is a fact that the UK can't produce all the food it needs so British farmers will always be needed, and if they need government subsidies to help them produce our food it is in our best interest to give it to them.

 

We agree on that, what I don't get is that you are seemingly upset that it is the EU that is giving the subsidy? Who cares who give the subsidy?

 

If UK Universities need grants to survive then the money we pay to the EU will be available to give them grants, they will also be able to attract more students from around the world if we don't have the free movement of people that we have whilst in the EU.

 

I didn't say UK Universities need those grants to survive, they are merely a part of the mix of income they have. But the best Universities in this country and ranking very high in the world have the following to say about these grants and about the European Union.

 

Of course, that isn't fact, it is merely other peoples' opinions. The fact that these are the people that run the Universities is irrelevant.

 

I had to re-read your last sentence twice because I couldn't believe how dumb it was. But you really do say that without free movement of people Universities can attract more students from around the world. Yes, I suppose one could argue that students like paying way more than local students pay, it is after all only 12,000£ per year difference for a non-EU and an EU student to do a Masters here, but really, I don't think even you believe that.

 

Now, feel free to dispel my 'facts' with your 'facts'.

Edited March 29, 2014 by tzijlstra

[janlizzy 10]

Tim,the farmers were getting subsidies long before we joined the eu.

[ivanava 10]

The only thing you have brought to this discussion is... your opinion, which is based on other peoples opinions and not facts.

 

I have highlighted a number of facts to which you then replied with several rather dubious claims, which let me to stop the discussion. However, as you are baiting me, I will happily carry on the discussion and predict now that you will refute everything I say with your version of facts.

 

 

 

The population in this country is in majority white English. The majority of people putting pressure on the NHS is over the age of 70 (the so-called grey wave) which is caused by ever longer lives due to improved medicine. If we plot the immigration waves we will quickly find that 70 years ago the majority of people in this country were... white English. Admittedly a rather substantial proportion decided to move to Spain *using EU rules to their benefits* but if you go to a hospital today you will find the majority of patients in long term care are indeed... white English.

 

If you talk to managers in the NHS about employing foreign nurses you will find that they will tell you that they have no option. There are not enough British nurses to turn the tide of increasing pressure on the system. If you know any nurses you will know that they have a very hard job and a lot of them actually change career before reaching retirement age because of the wear and tear that is placed on them.

 

 

 

You are quoting a Daily Mail article to back up your fact. It is the one newspaper that you should not rely on when it comes to facts, certainly not about things that they deem as areas of contest. If you do, it is handy to read beyond the headline and actually pick up on the following:

 

 

 

Guess what the Guardian said about this poll: Facts are easily interpretable, my point I made earlier.

 

 

 

There are plenty of facts to squash this statement, which is not a fact but a very clear opinion, but let me just explain frictional unemployment - unemployment that exists because a vacancy can not be filled with the right person in the right place in the right time.

 

EU immigrants are not picky about where they live/work as long as they work. They are prepared to move across the continent to find the job they want. As such they are an important factor in fighting frictional unemployment. This contrasts with local Brits who are not often keen to move for a job (particularly uneducated/low educated workers).

 

Would unemployment be lower? Perhaps, although not likely and the economy would be smaller without these migrant workers as well. As demonstrated in a recent report. Of course, the University of Oxford is a well known bastion of left wing apologists according to people opposing immigration from within the EU.

 

 

 

We agree on that, what I don't get is that you are seemingly upset that it is the EU that is giving the subsidy? Who cares who give the subsidy?

 

 

 

I didn't say UK Universities need those grants to survive, they are merely a part of the mix of income they have. But the best Universities in this country and ranking very high in the world have the following to say about these grants and about the European Union.

 

Of course, that isn't fact, it is merely other peoples' opinions. The fact that these are the people that run the Universities is irrelevant.

 

I had to re-read your last sentence twice because I couldn't believe how dumb it was. But you really do say that without free movement of people Universities can attract more students from around the world. Yes, I suppose one could argue that students like paying way more than local students pay, it is after all only 12,000£ per year difference for a non-EU and an EU student to do a Masters here, but really, I don't think even you believe that.

 

Now, feel free to dispel my 'facts' with your 'facts'.

 

 

The UK's population is 63.7 million people.

7.7 million are foreign born.

So 12% of the UK population is foreign born.

 

The NHS employes 1.7 million people.

187,000 are foreign born.

So 11% of NHS staff are foreign born.

 

So as you can see if we get rid of 12% of the population we could easily get rid of 11% of NHS staff.

 

No one as suggested we do this and we wouldn't do this if we leave the EU. But is clearly shows we only need the immigrants to work in the NHS because we have so many immigrants living in the country.

 

Please feel free to continue expressing your opinion, but please understand that it is just your opinion.

 

The rest of you post just looked like a rant.

Edited March 29, 2014 by ivanava

[tzijlstra 11]

The UK's population is 63.7 million people.

7.7 million are foreign born.

So 12% of the UK population is foreign born.

 

The NHS employes 1.7 million people.

187,000 are foreign born.

So 11% of NHS staff are foreign born.

 

So as you can see if we get rid of 12% of the population we could easily get rid of 11% of NHS staff.

 

No one as suggested we do this and we wouldn't do this if we leave the EU. But is clearly shows we only need the immigrants to work in the NHS because we have so many immigrants living in the country.

 

Please feel free to continue expressing your opinion, but please understand that it is just your opinion.

 

The rest of you post just looked like a rant.

 

Ah yes, when there are facts involved that you don't like because they have substance it looks just like a rant.

 

Very weak Ivanava, I expected a bit better, but that might have been naive.

 

---------- Post added 29-03-2014 at 22:47 ----------

 

Tim,the farmers were getting subsidies long before we joined the eu.

 

I know janlizzy, but the farm subsidies are one of the most popular arguments of those that want to leave the EU.

[ivanava 10]

Ah yes, when there are facts involved that you don't like because they have substance it looks just like a rant.

 

Very weak Ivanava, I expected a bit better, but that might have been naive.

 

 

Your argument doesn't have any substance, you have posted a mixture of facts and opinion to support your opinion that leaving the EU would be disastrous, but the evidence you have used doesn't to stand up to scrutiny. Your idea that the NHS would collapse is trashed, because only a low percentage of staff are immigrants and an even lower percentage are from the EU. Leaving the EU will relieve the burden which comes from the free movement of people but will still allow them to employ well qualified staff from around the world.

 

Farming subsidies trashed because the money given to the EU can still be given to farmers if they need it.

 

Universities subsidies trashed because money given to the EU can still be given to universities if they need it, and they can still attract students from around the world.

 

Business, yes a majority would like to stay in the EU, but a significant minority would like to leave, I would have expected more of them wanting to stay in because they can employ cheap EU labour. But what ever they say is opinion which is based on their best interests and not everyone elses best interests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know janlizzy, but the farm subsidies are one of the most popular arguments of those that want to leave the EU.

 

Rubbish, the free movement of people is the primary concern for the majority, because it creates many problems with many negatives and very few positives.

[SevenRivers 10]

 

I know janlizzy, but the farm subsidies are one of the most popular arguments of those that want to leave the EU.

 

Tell us all that is good about the Common Agricultural Policy and why we should support it.

[tzijlstra 11]

Your argument doesn't have any substance, you have posted a mixture of facts and opinion to support your opinion that leaving the EU would be disastrous, but the evidence you have used doesn't to stand up to scrutiny. Your idea that the NHS would collapse is trashed, because only a low percentage of staff are immigrants and an even lower percentage are from the EU. Leaving the EU will relieve the burden which comes from the free movement of people but will still allow them to employ well qualified staff from around the world.

 

You never addressed the main-issue facing the NHS: A growing elderly population that lives longer each year, makes the system struggle because there are fewer people entering the profession than required. But clearly your 'facts' are more valuable than mine in your opinion, a point I made about ten posts ago.

 

Farming subsidies trashed because the money given to the EU can still be given to farmers if they need it.

 

it can be, but will it be? Farage has said he wants to lower taxes, don't you think that is where he will need this money? He also has expensive plans for the NHS, in fact, he has a lot of plans that are uncosted and unaccounted for.

 

Universities subsidies trashed because money given to the EU can still be given to universities if they need it, and they can still attract students from around the world.

 

Same points as above. You still made a really dumb point that making EU students pay the same as overseas students is somehow going to increase foreign students coming. I like how you half maintain that point with your opinion rather than reflect upon the fact that the top Universities in this country have made it very clear they want to stay in the EU and that leaving would be detrimental.

 

Business, yes a majority would like to stay in the EU, but a significant minority would like to leave, I would have expected more of them wanting to stay in because they can employ cheap EU labour. But what ever they say is opinion which is based on their best interests and not everyone elses best interests.

 

So you now completely changed your earlier 'fact' because my 'fact' pointed out that your 'fact' was invalid? see what happens with 'facts'?

 

Rubbish, the free movement of people is the primary concern for the majority, because it creates many problems with many negatives and very few positives.

 

I already explained that EU migrants on the whole tend to contribute to the economy rather than take out of it. You are confusing EU migrants that come here to work with asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants that come here to have a better life and actually cost the state money.

 

It is easy to point at the Roma and say: see they all cause trouble! But in their case, isn't it the shady landlords that are the root cause? And what percentage are they of EU immigrants? Tiny, the majority you will never hear about because they are here, having well respected jobs, helping this country to move forward.

 

I realise in your world view you must be spot on and I must be an annoying internet troll who thinks he is spot on. That is indeed how it works, debating on the internet is never going to resolve anything. But don't tell me I have my facts wrong, or that you are 'trashing' them, because you are not. In my view you are just demonstrating your ignorance and unwillingness to actually debate on fact rather than on hearsay in public. And surprise, I am doing exactly the same in your view.

[BoroB 10]

Try and enlighten me, with things like facts Ivanava, than we will see.

 

A simple question - when was the last time that the EU's accounts got a clean bill of health from its auditors?

[tzijlstra 11]

A simple question - when was the last time that the EU's accounts got a clean bill of health from its auditors?

 

A simple question - when was the last time that EU immigrants cost this country more than that they contributed?

 

A simple question - how many UK people live and work in the EU and how many enjoy their UK pensions in another country?

 

A simple question - how big is the pressure on the Spanish Health Service as a result of all the grey immigrants they have?

 

A simple question - what was the theme for Auf Wiedersehen Pet?

 

A simple question - how many cars produced in the UK are being exported to the EU?

 

A simple question - how many people that work in universities are dependent on EU money?

 

A simple question - what is the difference between immigrants and asylum seekers?

 

A simple question - how is Farage going to afford his plans?

 

A simpler question - what are Farage's plans?

[GLASGOWOODS 10]

Moving the European parliament from Strasberg to Brussels once a month costs taxpayers £200 million quid a year.

 

What a waste!

[ivanava 10]

You never addressed the main-issue facing the NHS: A growing elderly population that lives longer each year, makes the system struggle because there are fewer people entering the profession than required. But clearly your 'facts' are more valuable than mine in your opinion, a point I made about ten posts ago.

 

I don't need to address it because whether we are in or out of the EU that situation stays the same, and the free movement of people doesn't help to solve that problem, if anything it makes it worse, because elderly EU citizens are free to come here and use the NHS.

 

 

it can be, but will it be? Farage has said he wants to lower taxes, don't you think that is where he will need this money? He also has expensive plans for the NHS, in fact, he has a lot of plans that are uncosted and unaccounted for.

 

Sorry I thought you was trying to show that coming out of the EU would be disastrous.

 

Same points as above. You still made a really dumb point that making EU students pay the same as overseas students is somehow going to increase foreign students coming. I like how you half maintain that point with your opinion rather than reflect upon the fact that the top Universities in this country have made it very clear they want to stay in the EU and that leaving would be detrimental.

 

I didn't make that statement.

 

 

So you now completely changed your earlier 'fact' because my 'fact' pointed out that your 'fact' was invalid? see what happens with 'facts'?

 

No I haven't, I posted that the majority want an in/out referendum, you posted that the majority want to stay in, these are two different facts, and are both irrelevant and prove nothing about the consequences of leaving the EU.

 

 

I already explained that EU migrants on the whole tend to contribute to the economy rather than take out of it.

Which isn't a fact, its simply your opinion which differs from my opinion.

 

You are confusing EU migrants that come here to work with asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants that come here to have a better life and actually cost the state money.

No I'm not, I haven't said anything about asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants.

 

 

It is easy to point at the Roma and say: see they all cause trouble! But in their case, isn't it the shady landlords that are the root cause? And what percentage are they of EU immigrants? Tiny, the majority you will never hear about because they are here, having well respected jobs, helping this country to move forward.

Who said anything about the Roma.

 

I realise in your world view you must be spot on and I must be an annoying internet troll who thinks he is spot on. That is indeed how it works, debating on the internet is never going to resolve anything. But don't tell me I have my facts wrong, or that you are 'trashing' them, because you are not. In my view you are just demonstrating your ignorance and unwillingness to actually debate on fact rather than on hearsay in public. And surprise, I am doing exactly the same in your view.

 

No you are just someone that expressed the opinion that everyone with a different opinion is short sighted and stupid, probably because you are convinced that your opinion is superior to the opinion of others.

 

I didn't say your facts are wrong, I said they don't show that leaving the EU would be disastrous.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2014 at 10:42 ----------

 

A simple question - when was the last time that EU immigrants cost this country more than that they contributed?

Taken as an whole they constantly cost this country more than that they contribute.

 

 

A simple question - how many UK people live and work in the EU and how many enjoy their UK pensions in another country?

1.2 million but not relevant to the discussion on leaving the EU

 

 

A simple question - how big is the pressure on the Spanish Health Service as a result of all the grey immigrants they have?

Very small.

 

 

 

A simple question - how many cars produced in the UK are being exported to the EU?

Less than are imported from the EU

 

A simple question - how many people that work in universities are dependent on EU money?

Zero

 

A simple question - what is the difference between immigrants and asylum seekers?

Irrelevant.

 

A simple question - how is Farage going to afford his plans?

Same as any other party, taxation.

 

A simpler question - what are Farage's plans?

 

To put pressure on the main parties to have an in/out referendum on membership of the EU.

Edited March 30, 2014 by ivanava

[BoroB 10]

A simple question - when was the last time that EU immigrants cost this country more than that they contributed?

 

A simple question - how many UK people live and work in the EU and how many enjoy their UK pensions in another country?

 

A simple question - how big is the pressure on the Spanish Health Service as a result of all the grey immigrants they have?

 

A simple question - what was the theme for Auf Wiedersehen Pet?

 

A simple question - how many cars produced in the UK are being exported to the EU?

 

A simple question - how many people that work in universities are dependent on EU money?

 

A simple question - what is the difference between immigrants and asylum seekers?

 

A simple question - how is Farage going to afford his plans?

 

A simpler question - what are Farage's plans?

 

I take it that you can not or will not answer the question posed? Its not that hard is it?

Edited March 30, 2014 by BoroB