Picking up programming after a lengthy time out.

[Guest]

As I said they are outsourced pieces of work from the banking industry. Other than this alone, UK does not have many software houses. Even if there are developments for proprietary software, they are far and few between, or that they already have their coders within the business themselves.

 

Are you telling me that he should enter a saturated market than to enter a new area in the tech world itself ? Which way would you advice someone like himself, who wants to enter back into the industry ?

 

Except none of the job offers I've had are anything remotely to do with banking.

 

If someone wants to program then why stop them? Just because *you* think what you think you're basically saying programming is a dead career choice which is complete crap.

 

If I remember rightly in a previous recent thread you had no idea Microsoft had released IE10, let alone IE11 so you have to wonder exactly what it is you do if you don't keep up to date with stuff.

[Waldo 96]

because the sort of crap that comes from abroad isn't worth paying any money for.

 

Unfortunately managers/beancounters don't see that, then they wonder why their IT systems go down so often.

 

Agreed. A pet hate of mine in fact...

 

Manger types with little to no technical knowledge, sticking their noses in (no doubt in an attempt to justify their position within the company) and making important technical decisions, when they don't have a frickin' clue as to the likely consequences and ramifications of their 'input'.

 

People like that really should be taken out, round the back of the building, and shot.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 14:20 ----------

 

Except none of the job offers I've had are anything remotely to do with banking.

 

I also see a lot of recruitment of coders going on within the video games industry.

[Cyclone 10]

Programming is not a secure career these days, why pay someone in the UK 30k+ when you can get someone abroad to do it for 20% of that?

 

On the contrary, development is currently in a bit of a boom, there's lots of work around.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 14:25 ----------

 

As I said they are outsourced pieces of work from the banking industry. Other than this alone, UK does not have many software houses. Even if there are developments for proprietary software, they are far and few between, or that they already have their coders within the business themselves.

 

Are you telling me that he should enter a saturated market than to enter a new area in the tech world itself ? Which way would you advice someone like himself, who wants to enter back into the industry ?

 

Nonsense, there is more development work around today than there has been for a good long while.

Most companies do have development staff in the business, this is what the OP is talking about though isn't it, the staff that are there were once looking for a job!

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2014 at 14:27 ----------

 

I knew someone would do this. I also scanned too. Why can't people just trust what others say rather than to dispute ?

Because you're almost always wrong.

 

For reference, I'm a self employed java developer, I've not been out of work for more than a week a year on average over the past 6 years (since I went self employed). I'm currently working in Sheffield city centre, I've worked in Sheffield for four clients, HSBC, Line Communications and SYP and the current one.

I've also worked in Leeds, Nottingham, Derby, London and briefly Kent (start of 2007 when the economy was crashing).

 

The market has generally been good, with the exception of 2007 when it was challenging, at the moment it's very strong, lots of work going on and lots of agents calling to ask when I'm available.

In terms of rates, it's gone up and down a bit, it depends on where the work is, but it's higher now than when I started and if I was prepared to travel further I could look at another 20%, if I went to London it would be more like another 60%, but some of that would be spent on travel and accomodation.

 

As to how the OP should get back into it... I've never had a break, but one place to start would be a "learn x in 21 days" book, be that C++, Java, .net (spit), or whatever.

Another option would be to dig out some old tutorials from uni and work through them, or just choose a project and see what you can achieve. Start with hello world and build up.

You can download and configure an entire development environment with very little trouble these days, it's a lot easier than it used to be. Many IDEs are free, come with built in servers and will automatically configure projects and pull in resources as needed.

PM if you want any specific java advice, as that's my area of expertise.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Cyclone

[salsafan 10]

Except none of the job offers I've had are anything remotely to do with banking.

 

If someone wants to program then why stop them? Just because *you* think what you think you're basically saying programming is a dead career choice which is complete crap.

He doesn't want to program. He said he stopped this and cannot read the code again and he thinks that to get back into the industry is to find a way to code. I said no, he should focus on what is required now from the industry than what he thinks will work instead. He asked for ideas, and also for stability. So I am giving him my perspective and what I learnt for myself in my areas and fields. If programming was his passion, then why did he let this go to begin with ? Also, programming may not mean that your job will be in the UK. It could be in the US. Will he be prepared to move for his job ?

 

When I left university, programming jobs were indeed plenty, but that has moved on. Many softwares are created already. Even inhouse IT departments used external systems to get themselves up and running. After the mid-90s, I would say that most companies now have different systems. So integration is really the key now. I was not aware of this, but is slowly also coming to accept and learn this too. My focus had always been on the application layer. Business processes, and business resolutions and efficiencies etc. The size of implementation projects for me was quite large. Only medium to large companies use the system that I develop, support and so forth.

 

Don't you realise that you are in a niche market ? I find it odd that, so many people dispute this. If you read the OP's post, he "thought" that programming was the way to go to get back into the industry. I said "no", this is not a necessity at all. To me, I made a choice many moons ago, and the OP seemed to have made a similar choice too. Either to get technical, or to get more business savvy. I chose business.

 

He has two options:

1 - Get technical - Get into software houses, R&D departments, IT consultancy firms, or some old engineering firms who still requires bespoke legacy systems. Only a certain size company will have bespoke legacy systems, and you are looking at languages like COBOLs, Pythons, and various other systems also. Any old manufacturing instruments that require codes for processing still need this kind of low level expertise.

 

2 - Have technical, Get business savvy - Understand businesses and how they operate. Understand business processes, the different industries and how system applies to those industries. Understand finances. This will open up more doors for him. As they still require hiring IT personnels who can understand the technical aspect, but also is bridging the gap onto the operational side of a company. Many "pic a mix" systems now exist in your average firm. This was to gain advantage to make a company grow. Now that they are of a certain reputabe size, they will consolidate and create efficiencies where they can. Either reimplementation or consolidation of contracts. As companies merge and demerge, this is also a skill that an IT managerial person needs to know too.

 

 

If I remember rightly in a previous recent thread you had no idea Microsoft had released IE10, let alone IE11 so you have to wonder exactly what it is you do if you don't keep up to date with stuff.

Huh ? Don't you mean that you do not know what I do for a living ? I do not need to keep in touch with what MS releases and why. All I need to know is what my customer wants and how to put together a solution to get them pass their business hurdles. My focus is never to drop the ball on any transactions. Even if an IE does not work, I would have (if I was lucky), to have a great desktop team to also support me, and we wipe and clear, than to spend silly time to play chase to find the exact bug which Microsoft missed out on. I do not justify my time that way to my management. Can I justify to the sales manager that he cannot have his laptop back cos it is still in testing mode, whilst he has got a meeting with a client to discuss a 200k contract ? No I can't. Can you ?

 

I am not one of these stubborn IT personnel who thinks that their technical solution needs to be champion and appreciated despite what the overall business themselves need. I "was" this kind of person before, but unfortunately the money to survive and stay in a job makes me learn and be humble and open my eyes again to see the reality.

 

I'm sorry if what I wrote offended you. But that is my perspective of the industry and what I managed to do and why I am still in a job. Obviously your chosen decision has made you niche in this area, and you still seems to be angst STILL on management, than to accept what is the reality ? To me, maybe you like to see the industry that I am in should be the same as yours, but I am a little bit more pragmatic. The funny thing is, I can see this thread as read my 190 people, but only a handful of people replied. Why are they not honest about their industry or their jobs and help a fellow man here ?

 

http://www.cio.co.uk/insight/cio-career/cio-view-mba-really-worth-it/

 

It does not help if you know something, but when the time comes, will you apply it, and make sure that your colleague also achieve their goals too ? THAT is what a lot of IT personnel stuck on. As it is a lot of "me me me over that of the business". It takes a lot to see and work in other people's position in order to appreciate how technology impacts them on a daily basis. I've been there, done that, and is now over the rainbow and worked in the business side to appreciate what is going on. Some technology choices really sucks big time. Really. As it was a bad decision and not "fit for purpose" so to speak. You may say that it was because of the best decision at the time, in which case, the management in IT then was not kept in the loop in the future business development plans. Yet, why was the IT management not involved in the decision making of the business ? If you noticed, not many CIO positions existed before. Even if people wanted to make those strategic decisions, they were not in the role which enabled them to do so. Now that most CIOs exist in a typical company, decision on technology choices can be made and be kept in growth alongside the business !

Edited February 12, 2014 by salsafan

[geared 301]

I'm not entirely sure what I'm asking, but maybe some feedback on what it was like for you going back to programming and how fast you picked it back up, if at all.

 

If it helps my mum got back into programming a while back and is currently the course leader for ICT at her FE college.

 

To put it into perspective she was in the team who wrote one of the first stock control database for the MOD.

 

She took evening classes in ICT and went from there.

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

To put it into perspective she was in the team who wrote one of the first stock control database for the MOD.

Interesting... was that down at Portland Bill by any chance?

[salsafan 10]

http://www.cio.co.uk/blogs/some-inconvenient-truths/cios-get-ceos-they-deserve/

[Cyclone 10]

He doesn't want to program.

The title suggests otherwise "Picking up programming"

He said he stopped this and cannot read the code again and he thinks that to get back into the industry is to find a way to code. I said no, he should focus on what is required now from the industry than what he thinks will work instead.

You are wrong about developers not being required.

He asked for ideas, and also for stability. So I am giving him my perspective and what I learnt for myself in my areas and fields. If programming was his passion, then why did he let this go to begin with ? Also, programming may not mean that your job will be in the UK. It could be in the US. Will he be prepared to move for his job ?

Why might your job be in the US if you apply for a job in the UK? You make no sense.

 

When I left university, programming jobs were indeed plenty, but that has moved on.

No, it really hasn't.

Many softwares are created already. Even inhouse IT departments used external systems to get themselves up and running. After the mid-90s, I would say that most companies now have different systems. So integration is really the key now. I was not aware of this, but is slowly also coming to accept and learn this too. My focus had always been on the application layer. Business processes, and business resolutions and efficiencies etc. The size of implementation projects for me was quite large. Only medium to large companies use the system that I develop, support and so forth.

Err, what?

 

Don't you realise that you are in a niche market ?

Who?

I find it odd that, so many people dispute this.

You don't think that maybe you're just wrong?

If you read the OP's post, he "thought" that programming was the way to go to get back into the industry. I said "no", this is not a necessity at all. To me, I made a choice many moons ago, and the OP seemed to have made a similar choice too. Either to get technical, or to get more business savvy. I chose business.

We appear to have read the OP differently because I thought he was asking about how to get back into programming, and instead of answering you told him not to.

 

He has two options:

1 - Get technical - Get into software houses, R&D departments, IT consultancy firms, or some old engineering firms who still requires bespoke legacy systems. Only a certain size company will have bespoke legacy systems, and you are looking at languages like COBOLs, Pythons, and various other systems also.

Not true at all.

 

2 - Have technical, Get business savvy - Understand businesses and how they operate. Understand business processes, the different industries and how system applies to those industries. Understand finances. This will open up more doors for him. As they still require hiring IT personnels who can understand the technical aspect, but also is bridging the gap onto the operational side of a company. Many "pic a mix" systems now exist in your average firm. This was to gain advantage to make a company grow. Now that they are of a certain reputabe size, they will consolidate and create efficiencies where they can. Either reimplementation or consolidation of contracts. As companies merge and demerge, this is also a skill that an IT managerial person needs to know too.

All possible, but he didn't start a thread asking how to learn business analysis or process re-engineering.

 

 

 

Huh ? Don't you mean that you do not know what I do for a living ? I do not need to keep in touch with what MS releases and why. All I need to know is what my customer wants and how to put together a solution to get them pass their business hurdles.

So you admit that you are not up to date with technical issues.

My focus is never to drop the ball on any transactions. Even if an IE does not work, I would have (if I was lucky), to have a great desktop team to also support me, and we wipe and clear, than to spend silly time to play chase to find the exact bug which Microsoft missed out on. I do not justify my time that way to my management. Can I justify to the sales manager that he cannot have his laptop back cos it is still in testing mode, whilst he has got a meeting with a client to discuss a 200k contract ? No I can't. Can you ?

Do you work in IT support? If not, then why would you be fixing a laptop? And if it doesn't work, then yes, IT Support will provide a temporary replacement in any decent organisation.

 

I am not one of these stubborn IT personnel who thinks that their technical solution needs to be champion and appreciated despite what the overall business themselves need. I "was" this kind of person before, but unfortunately the money to survive and stay in a job makes me learn and be humble and open my eyes again to see the reality.

 

I'm sorry if what I wrote offended you. But that is my perspective of the industry and what I managed to do and why I am still in a job. Obviously your chosen decision has made you niche in this area, and you still seems to be angst STILL on management, than to accept what is the reality ?

 

Nobody is offended, we're just trying to make sure that your misinformation about the state of the industry isn't believed.

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

Nobody is offended, we're just trying to make sure that your misinformation about the state of the industry isn't believed.

Boy, am I glad you had the patience to go through all that lot...

[salsafan 10]

The OP is already in mid-career. He has worked 10 years already. He needs to get back in, and in order to stay and sustain for a longer period, then he needs to catch what is the next wave. If I was a recruiter, I would also question why the person has been out of the industry for that long. Plus what he has to offer and how he can offer his skills to match what I need. By mid-30s, you would be in a senior team lead or specialist, or middle management roles. If you go down the business route, then you have more doors open for you. If you go down the technical route, then you have less doors open for you. Unless you actually consider working everywhere in the world, then the door is wider.

 

http://www.cio.co.uk/insight/workforce-development/bt-army-cios-tackling-it-skills-gap-with-in-house-training/

 

BT Group CIO Selley told the attendees: "There is a skills gap now in the UK, and we're now

skewing towards recruiting from maths-based backgrounds rather than computer science because data science and analytics is so key now.

 

"We take on 100 graduates every year and it's tough, even during a recession, to recruit 100 young men and women for the scheme. We're struggling," he said.

 

Selley said graduates are lacking in certain areas of development, but also that is was a worry holding on to the staff they invest in.

 

"The younger generation have no presumption about having a job for life any more," he said. "But if you give them good projects to work on, they tend to stay.

 

"But it's not just about writing Java or exploring Hadoop. I want to get graduates to have a business mindset and become commercially oriented.

 

"I want our department to be constantly learning, and I expect them to reinvent themselves at least once in their careers.

People like this BT CIO does not want to know:

"How do I use this SQL command to make sure that it picks up the values created in May."

(Technical commands and speech.)

 

He is championing this kind of mindset:

"How many customers within the north-west region have been sold the BT infinity package in the month of May."

(Business information which adds value to an internal employee.)

 

 

If you worry so much about the code, then you are missing the goal of your supposed achievement. Unfortunately in this day and age, you have to think like a business owner yourself.

[geared 301]

Interesting... was that down at Portland Bill by any chance?

 

No I don't think so, it was before I was born but IIRC it was on an army base somewhere around Oxford (maybe?)

[dosxuk 10]

People like this BT CIO does not want to know:

"How do I use this SQL command to make sure that it picks up the values created in May."

(Technical commands and speech.)

 

He is championing this kind of mindset:

"How many customers within the north-west region have been sold the BT infinity package in the month of May."

(Business information which adds value to an internal employee.)

 

 

If you worry so much about the code, then you are missing the goal of your supposed achievement. Unfortunately in this day and age, you have to think like a business owner yourself.

 

Luckily for developers, these things go in cycles - first you have a load of developers build a system which meets the business requirements, then some bean counters and CIO's come along, decide developers are expensive, and get helpdesk staff to build the next wave of tools, in stuff like Excel or notepad, or buy in a pre-built package which meets most of the requirements (but inevitably requires an unpopular change in the business procedures). Naturally, these products aren't suitable, and normally after a disaster, a new CIO is appointed and a new wave of software is built which actually works by actual developers.

 

The only people who place business knowledge over engineering skills when it comes to recruiting developers are those who don't understand software development. The sort of person who recruits a top notch business analyst into a head developer position and then finds themselves wondering a few years later why they've been lumbered with a massive fine from the ICO, or how they're going to continue because someone's Word macro just deleted the entire customer database and backups.