School Uniform - a Good Thing, or Not?

[aliceBB 10]

A no-nonsense approach would suffice. If the kid comes to school in the wrong uniform, their parents are called and have to either take them home or bring the correct uniform for them. After a few instances of this the parents will insure the kids are properly dressed.

 

I agree in principle, but I know that this approach doesn't always work in practice. You assume that parents are available to pick up their kids when many are not, or would actually refuse to come into school for something they regard as unimportant. Tbh, if the kids don't want to wear it and the parents don't care, there is not much a school can do to enforce a uniform policy unless it is at huge expense in terms of teacher time, day in day out. Making examples of a few kids just doesn't work as you think it ought to. Apart from anything else, schools are penalised for every exclusion, even if it is only for a few hours. You have to be able to justify why you have deliberately interrupted their education.

 

The other option is isolating the offenders so life is so boring they decide to conform - but that still hinders their progress as they are out of their normal classes. Plus, a minority of these really quite like being taken out of classes and have no motivation to toe the uniform line.

 

It's a pain! And it is not really an educational issue, more a control issue.

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2014 at 11:27 ----------

 

I should have clarified that it was a school tie and even though I wasn't wearing a school blazer and badge I could still be recognised as belonging to a certain school.

 

Ah, I see.

[WeX 10]

I agree in principle, but I know that this approach doesn't always work in practice. You assume that parents are available to pick up their kids when many are not, or would actually refuse to come into school for something they regard as unimportant. Tbh, if the kids don't want to wear it and the parents don't care, there is not much a school can do to enforce a uniform policy unless it is at huge expense in terms of teacher time, day in day out. Making examples of a few kids just doesn't work as you think it ought to. Apart from anything else, schools are penalised for every exclusion, even if it is only for a few hours. You have to be able to justify why you have deliberately interrupted their education.

 

The other option is isolating the offenders so life is so boring they decide to conform - but that still hinders their progress as they are out of their normal classes. Plus, a minority of these really quite like being taken out of classes and have no motivation to toe the uniform line.

 

It's a pain! And it is not really an educational issue, more a control issue.

 

Its the parents responsibility to clothe their child correctly. They have a contract with the school for this. The rule worked in the schools I went to well. Its funny how the kids who tried it on, soon stopped when their parents had to go out of their ways to sort it.

 

A parent who sends their child to school in the wrong uniform or allows them to do so and then says they are unavailable to rectify the situation are failing in their responsibility. What if the child was ill? The parent(s) are meant to be available to take a sick child home.

[aliceBB 10]

Its the parents responsibility to clothe their child correctly. They have a contract with the school for this. The rule worked in the schools I went to well. Its funny how the kids who tried it on, soon stopped when their parents had to go out of their ways to sort it.

 

A parent who sends their child to school in the wrong uniform or allows them to do so and then says they are unavailable to rectify the situation are failing in their responsibility. What if the child was ill? The parent(s) are meant to be available to take a sick child home.

 

I agree, but the fact is that the sort of contract parents enter into with a school is not enforceable on the parent, when push comes to shove. If a school persistently excluded a kid for incorrect uniform, and the parents sued the school or the LEA for failing to provide him with an education, the school would lose. It will be interesting to see whether the recent changes will make any difference, although I suspect not, since it is difficult to argue that wearing a uniform is necessary for education to happen. It is not the same as a parent failing to ensure the child is adequately nourished, physically safe at home, or that they arrive on time, as these things directly affect their learning.

 

If the child is ill most parents would drop everything and come to collect them, or at least arrange for a grandparent or friend to do so. But there will always be a minority whose response is : 'But I'm at work. Can't one of the teachers run him home?' or even 'You've got a sick bay, haven't you?'

Edited January 30, 2014 by aliceBB

[salsafan 10]

I agree in principle, but I know that this approach doesn't always work in practice. You assume that parents are available to pick up their kids when many are not, or would actually refuse to come into school for something they regard as unimportant. Tbh, if the kids don't want to wear it and the parents don't care, there is not much a school can do to enforce a uniform policy unless it is at huge expense in terms of teacher time, day in day out. Making examples of a few kids just doesn't work as you think it ought to. Apart from anything else, schools are penalised for every exclusion, even if it is only for a few hours. You have to be able to justify why you have deliberately interrupted their education.

 

The other option is isolating the offenders so life is so boring they decide to conform - but that still hinders their progress as they are out of their normal classes. Plus, a minority of these really quite like being taken out of classes and have no motivation to toe the uniform line.

 

It's a pain! And it is not really an educational issue, more a control issue.

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2014 at 11:27 ----------

 

 

Ah, I see.

 

It is not really a "control" issue though is it ? It is one that actually make the parent be more responsible of their own child. In independent schools, they either make the child buy the item from the school office, or that they would get reprimanded. Most parents do and will comply, otherwise if they are penalised, then their child is also likely to be slowly pushed out of the school for misconduct. Rightly so. As this really is about being responsible for the child's own education.

 

Do you see a fireman excusing himself and not working for forgetting his uniform ? Whose responsibility it is for him not wearing a uniform when on duty? He would not even get to be on duty. The analogy can and should be extended to children too for not wearing a uniform when attending school.

 

It is as you say, most parents do not care. If they do not care about the simple things like uniform, and that their child is well dressed, and ready. Then what makes you think that they care all that much about the standard of their education. Or the progressive level of their learning too ?

 

When I was behind in my school work, my mother would readily find someone to tutor me so that I do not drag the class behind. This is the same now in independent school, they have a standard to adhere to. Why do parents think that the school is supposed to do all the "parenting" of the child too ?

 

If a child has behavioural problems and is not complying with school rules, then it is also down to the parent to discipline the child too. Or to find a way to make him learn. Or to find a way or put down a method to allow the child to make himself learn so much better. There should not even be the topic of politics and control coming into play.

[aliceBB 10]

salsafan, you are preaching to the converted, but the parallels you draw with independents schools aren't really applicable here, since they are beyond education authority control and can kick out anyone who proves troublesome for whatever reason, if they choose to. State schools do not have that luxury.

 

I do not wish to exaggerate the problem - I'm sure there are schools where the kids w generally wear it properly if not cheerfully and it doesn't cause headaches for the teachers who are required by the Head to enforce it when what they really want to do is teach. But all it takes is a significant stroppy/disaffected minority of kids and/or parents, and it is virtually impossible to police it. Yes, of course it is the parents' responsibility, but if they do not take that seriously, the uniform policy will never be implemented 100%, or at least not without unjustifable cost to the school in terms of staff time and energy.

[Hammerstein 10]

Do you see a fireman excusing himself and not working for forgetting his uniform ? Whose responsibility it is for him not wearing a uniform when on duty? He would not even get to be on duty. The analogy can and should be extended to children too for not wearing a uniform when attending school.

 

A fireman's job is a matter of life and death. There are circumstances where it is absolutely vital to be able to recognise a fireman very quickly in order to save lives. It isn't really the same in schools.

 

It is as you say, most parents do not care. If they do not care about the simple things like uniform, and that their child is well dressed, and ready. Then what makes you think that they care all that much about the standard of their education. Or the progressive level of their learning too ?

 

This is a ridiculous argument. I really don't see a link between what the child is wearing and their well-being and the quality of their education.

 

When I was behind in my school work, my mother would readily find someone to tutor me so that I do not drag the class behind. This is the same now in independent school, they have a standard to adhere to. Why do parents think that the school is supposed to do all the "parenting" of the child too ?

 

Many parents can't afford a tutor.

 

If a child has behavioural problems and is not complying with school rules, then it is also down to the parent to discipline the child too. Or to find a way to make him learn. Or to find a way or put down a method to allow the child to make himself learn so much better. There should not even be the topic of politics and control coming into play.

 

This is of course assuming that it is the child with the problem. Often little focus is ever given to whether schools, where the children are essentially prisoners, are healthy for the child. Obviously most children have never experienced anything else so don't know how else they might be run, but the point remains.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Hammerstein

[WeX 10]

It is not really a "control" issue though is it ? It is one that actually make the parent be more responsible of their own child. In independent schools, they either make the child buy the item from the school office, or that they would get reprimanded. Most parents do and will comply, otherwise if they are penalised, then their child is also likely to be slowly pushed out of the school for misconduct. Rightly so. As this really is about being responsible for the child's own education.

 

Do you see a fireman excusing himself and not working for forgetting his uniform ? Whose responsibility it is for him not wearing a uniform when on duty? He would not even get to be on duty. The analogy can and should be extended to children too for not wearing a uniform when attending school.

 

It is as you say, most parents do not care. If they do not care about the simple things like uniform, and that their child is well dressed, and ready. Then what makes you think that they care all that much about the standard of their education. Or the progressive level of their learning too ?

 

When I was behind in my school work, my mother would readily find someone to tutor me so that I do not drag the class behind. This is the same now in independent school, they have a standard to adhere to. Why do parents think that the school is supposed to do all the "parenting" of the child too ?

 

If a child has behavioural problems and is not complying with school rules, then it is also down to the parent to discipline the child too. Or to find a way to make him learn. Or to find a way or put down a method to allow the child to make himself learn so much better. There should not even be the topic of politics and control coming into play.

 

Completely agree and this is how it worked in my schools. If you played up, your parents where summoned. You soon sorted out your behaviour.

[aliceBB 10]

Completely agree and this is how it worked in my schools. If you played up, your parents where summoned. You soon sorted out your behaviour.

 

The past is another country, where this issue is concerned, I'm afraid.

[WeX 10]

A fireman's job is a matter of life and death. There are circumstances where it is absolutely vital to be able to recognise a fireman very quickly in order to save lives. It isn't really the same in schools.

 

Your splitting hairs here. Does the person on the till at McDonald's wear what they want? Would they be sent home if they didn't wear their uniform? Would they fired if they persisted in ignoring the rules?

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2014 at 11:35 ----------

 

The past is another country, where this issue is concerned, I'm afraid.

 

How old do you think I am? The schools I attended have the same policies now.

[aliceBB 10]

Your splitting hairs here. Does the person on the till at McDonald's wear what they want? Would they be sent home if they didn't wear their uniform? Would they fired if they persisted in ignoring the rules?

Employment is governed by different statute from schools in the UK. It is not the same situation. Pupils are not employed, but legally obliged to be at school.

 

How old do you think I am? The schools I attended have the same policies now

Good for them! I'm glad to hear it. My point was that if a strict uniform policy works, it is only with the co-operation of the parents and pupils themselves ; it's virtually impossible to impose it (legally) against their will.

[Hammerstein 10]

Employment is governed by different statute from schools in the UK. It is not the same situation. Pupils are not employed, but legally obliged to be at school.

 

Nailed it.

 

Edit: Although to answer WeX myself, there are many shops where a uniform isn't required. Many clothes shops for example have people wearing casual clothes (although many may require the people to wear clothes bought from the shop). Full uniforms aren't vital on any practical level, they're just a custom. So long as customers can recognise staff in some way - whether by a hat or a badge or something - it doesn't matter at all.

 

In schools it is different entirely though. There isn't really a need to distinguish between pupils and non-pupils.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Hammerstein

[salsafan 10]

A fireman's job is a matter of life and death. There are circumstances where it is absolutely vital to be able to recognise a fireman very quickly in order to save lives. It isn't really the same in schools.

Why not ? It is the same. The fireman is serious about his job. About saving lives. Shouldn't a child be serious about their future too, and also serious about what they are learning ? The motivation has to be shown, as children do not know any better. It has to be taught and shown how. If children cannot or is not parented to see their own weaknesses and strengths, then what makes you think that they will excel all on their own ?

 

This is a ridiculous argument. I really don't see a link between what the child is wearing and their well-being and the quality of their education.

It is about whether you are serious about your own life or not. If you take it seriously or not. If you do not care about such small things, what makes you think that you will care about the bigger things in life ?

 

A school uniform is not just about clothing, but it is about personal responsibilities. Can a child dress themselves, and take care of themselves and so forth. You may be surprised that many children when shown how can look after themselves when young. You need to praise that the child is doing well and he will feel good in his own achievements. Dressing well is also the same too. If parents do not care and do not teach them these basics to appreciate and achieve against, what makes a person know and think that they can handle larger things in life, if the simplest of things like dressing well and walking out the door is looked after? It is a personal hygiene responsibility.

 

Many parents can't afford a tutor.

My mother cannot afford a tutor either and we were living in council housing too. It was my own brother who tutored me and he was at least 12 years older than I was. There you go.

 

I in turn tutored my cousins when I was older, and once I understood a subject inside and out.

 

This is of course assuming that it is the child with the problem. Often little focus is ever given to whether schools, where the children are essentially prisoners, are healthy for the child. Obviously most children have never experienced anything else so don't know how else they might be run, but the point remains.

 

It's funny, my nephew who is 2 years old goes to nursery in London, and already he has been told off for behavourial problems at school. It means he is not ready to socialise yet. So my sister now make him go to nursery less, and then spend more time to play with him in order to learn the social skills that he needs at nursery. As he is more clingy and is not willing to share. He does not know what to say or to do to want to play with the other kids. In a few months, he is now ready. He even knows how to ask to play with another kid. This kind of empathy skill needs to be taught. It was so horrible to push him to go originally when he was not ready, but now he gets private time with his parents to make him feel more secure, as well as ways to communicate with others kids so that he can express himself clearly. Now he is so happy.

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2014 at 11:58 ----------

 

salsafan, you are preaching to the converted, but the parallels you draw with independents schools aren't really applicable here, since they are beyond education authority control and can kick out anyone who proves troublesome for whatever reason, if they choose to. State schools do not have that luxury.

 

I do not wish to exaggerate the problem - I'm sure there are schools where the kids w generally wear it properly if not cheerfully and it doesn't cause headaches for the teachers who are required by the Head to enforce it when what they really want to do is teach. But all it takes is a significant stroppy/disaffected minority of kids and/or parents, and it is virtually impossible to police it. Yes, of course it is the parents' responsibility, but if they do not take that seriously, the uniform policy will never be implemented 100%, or at least not without unjustifable cost to the school in terms of staff time and energy.

I used to be so childish and not side with my mother on issues and topics like this. Having worked in the professional environment, and also been to different schools when young one with a uniform and another without, the difference in teaching and the standards were so different. I can genuinely appreciate this kind of slow transition from school to working environment and what one learns as they grow. My mother was right to say that "one day you will thank me for making you do this". This is true.

 

I used to think and actually challenge whether it is right and just to bully the parents whose children are unruly, but then when I realised that importance of your child surviving in the real world and making sure that they learn slowly but surely. They have all the time in the world to learn and make small mistakes when young, that by the time that they are older, they shouldn't make that much mistakes on basic things like that.

 

It really is one of those survival skill which a parent teaches slowly but surely over time and adapt the method which works best for their own child. So yes, clothing is important in the sense of dressing well, and taking care of one's personal hygiene and well being.

 

---------- Post added 30-01-2014 at 12:00 ----------

 

Employment is governed by different statute from schools in the UK. It is not the same situation. Pupils are not employed, but legally obliged to be at school.

 

Good for them! I'm glad to hear it. My point was that if a strict uniform policy works, it is only with the co-operation of the parents and pupils themselves ; it's virtually impossible to impose it (legally) against their will.

Basically again, this is one of these education politics issue isn't it ? In my mind, this should not even BE an issue. Either parents are serious about their kid or that they are not. Uniform or no uniform. Do most parents know how to bring the best out of their own child as well, rather than to think that they will remain happy but without understanding of what works and what doesn't work with their own child.

Edited January 30, 2014 by salsafan