Lee Rigby's killers trial

[angos 10]

It was no Islam I or any Muslim who I know (and I know a fair few!) holds a favourable view of.

I and the Muslims I know all abhor and deplore what these men did that day to Drummer Rigby.

 

That will be in insignificant number compared to the 1.6 billion Muslims who's opinion on the matter you don't know.

[buck 11]

It absolutely was yes. It could even by fairly well argued that our very involvement in WW2 was an international crime. The myth that WW2 was a goodies vs baddies fight will be shown for the lie it is.

 

However, this is a completely different discussion for a completely different environment. In my short time here I have learnt that reasoned debate is beyond most people.

I rather suspect that you were not around at the time, as I was. Our involvement in the war was forced on us by the biggest bunch of thugs and murderers ever to pollute the earth. Many thousands of innocent Londoners were murdered by the Luftwaffe in 1940 and 1941, as well as many hundreds of Sheffielders. I do not condone the bombing of Dresden in any way, and many people were of the same opinion as myself about it. But for the most part, our people behaved with honour and courage. A cultured country allowed itself to be led by a madman, and paid a terrible price for it, but we would have paid a higher price if Hitler had got on to our shores.

[mort 10]

Back on topic please and keep it civil.

[Nagel 10]

Where are Lee Rigby's killers from? On the news they were reported to have said they did it because of what British soldiers had done to their country and their people, yet they look African and have African sounding names.

 

---------- Post added 29-11-2013 at 22:31 ----------

 

Back on topic please and keep it civil.

 

Don't understand. It's been civil and it's been on topic. The discussion of the legality and morality of war is on topic I would say.

[angos 10]

Where are Lee Rigby's killers from? On the news they were reported to have said they did it because of what British soldiers had done to their country and their people, yet they look African and have African sounding names.

 

Their people are Muslims and their country is any Muslim country, despite living in the UK they don't see us or this country as their country.

[ronthenekred 10]

That will be in insignificant number compared to the 1.6 billion Muslims who's opinion on the matter you don't know.

 

I think she was emphasising she "Knows a fair few". Where as you probably only know a taxi driver at most..and in passing..,and you certainly don't know the views of 1.6 billion as a counter.

 

Sorry, just remembered, you never use taxis so the likelihood is you know none, so statistically she's probably in a better position than you to comment.

[charmer 10]

I rather suspect that you were not around at the time, as I was. Our involvement in the war was forced on us by the biggest bunch of thugs and murderers ever to pollute the earth. Many thousands of innocent Londoners were murdered by the Luftwaffe in 1940 and 1941, as well as many hundreds of Sheffielders. I do not condone the bombing of Dresden in any way, and many people were of the same opinion as myself about it. But for the most part, our people behaved with honour and courage. A cultured country allowed itself to be led by a madman, and paid a terrible price for it, but we would have paid a higher price if Hitler had got on to our shores.

 

You are accurate with your suspicions. I wasn't even alive for the Falklands! However, I am an avid historian and love to discuss past events objectively. I am aware that this is a bit off topic, but I do love a good debate.

 

The biggest bunch of thugs and murderers ever to pollute the earth

 

Hmm not a chance, not even close. Read up on the British Army and the "Scramble for Africa", or the Crusades. If it is pure numbers you are interested in, look to Stalin (our Ally, a "goodie") and his purges or Chairman Mao (also our ally) and his "great leaps forward". Or the Mongols, or the supression of the Dungan revolt. Look to your history, the Nazi's don't even make the top ten. As mentioned above, 2 of our allies actually killed more civilians than Hitler. Uncomfortable thought that.

 

Many thousands of innocent Londoners were murdered by the Luftwaffe in 1940 and 1941, as well as many hundreds of Sheffielders

 

I think you will find that it was us who declared war on Germany. not the other way round. Hitler wanted peace. Did you know that before the miracle of Dunkirk Hitler ordered his forces to hold position for 3 days? Had he not done that, out whole professional army would have been wiped out. 300,000 plus British soldiers, half that amount of French and a smattering of Belgians and Finns.

 

But for the most part, our people behaved with honour and courage.

 

Our soldiers were sent to war to protect our Empire. Them sneaky Germans had the audacity to want to do what we had done only a few generations before. There were only so many Africans and Indians to be owned, and us and the French didn't want to share our possessions with those Germans!

 

A cultured country allowed itself to be led by a madman, and paid a terrible price for it, but we would have paid a higher price if Hitler had got on to our shores

 

Again interesting. Let me give you a quote, "The Aryan stock is bound to triumph", which war time leader said this??? Winston Churchill.

Which war time leader allowed 3 million Indians from the Bengal to starve as they were "beastly creatures, with a beastly religion" and blamed the victims as "it was their fault for breeding like rabbits".

 

 

It is a fact that the Allies killed more people than the Axis powers. History is written by the victor, none of the above is taught in schools.

 

Had Hitler won would the world have been a worse place?

 

Well, we would look back now and think Hitler was needed. Stalin had already killed between 50-70 million people (about 10x the amount Hitler killed), so would we be praising him for freeing the world of the evil Soviet threat?

 

Chairman Mao, who was leader of what is now China by the end of the war would have been tried and executed for war crimes. This would have saved the lives of 60 million odd Chinese people.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier. The idea of WW2 being about good vs evil is utterly fictitious and falls apart under any scrutiny. We still occupy parts of Germany and America still occupies part of Japan.

 

In 200 years, school children will be taught a very different story concerning WW2

[SpikeMac 10]

In this case, yes - its the only way these 2 scumbags would get what they deserve...

I know they will probably get life, but I think there are thousands of people who would be willing to act as executioner for these two.

 

Enough said really. Ghostrider is a supporter of Sharia Law in the UK.

 

That is all.

[buck 11]

You are accurate with your suspicions. I wasn't even alive for the Falklands! However, I am an avid historian and love to discuss past events objectively. I am aware that this is a bit off topic, but I do love a good debate.

 

The biggest bunch of thugs and murderers ever to pollute the earth

 

Hmm not a chance, not even close. Read up on the British Army and the "Scramble for Africa", or the Crusades. If it is pure numbers you are interested in, look to Stalin (our Ally, a "goodie") and his purges or Chairman Mao (also our ally) and his "great leaps forward". Or the Mongols, or the supression of the Dungan revolt. Look to your history, the Nazi's don't even make the top ten. As mentioned above, 2 of our allies actually killed more civilians than Hitler. Uncomfortable thought that.

 

Many thousands of innocent Londoners were murdered by the Luftwaffe in 1940 and 1941, as well as many hundreds of Sheffielders

 

I think you will find that it was us who declared war on Germany. not the other way round. Hitler wanted peace. Did you know that before the miracle of Dunkirk Hitler ordered his forces to hold position for 3 days? Had he not done that, out whole professional army would have been wiped out. 300,000 plus British soldiers, half that amount of French and a smattering of Belgians and Finns.

 

But for the most part, our people behaved with honour and courage.

 

Our soldiers were sent to war to protect our Empire. Them sneaky Germans had the audacity to want to do what we had done only a few generations before. There were only so many Africans and Indians to be owned, and us and the French didn't want to share our possessions with those Germans!

 

A cultured country allowed itself to be led by a madman, and paid a terrible price for it, but we would have paid a higher price if Hitler had got on to our shores

 

Again interesting. Let me give you a quote, "The Aryan stock is bound to triumph", which war time leader said this??? Winston Churchill.

Which war time leader allowed 3 million Indians from the Bengal to starve as they were "beastly creatures, with a beastly religion" and blamed the victims as "it was their fault for breeding like rabbits".

 

 

It is a fact that the Allies killed more people than the Axis powers. History is written by the victor, none of the above is taught in schools.

 

Had Hitler won would the world have been a worse place?

 

Well, we would look back now and think Hitler was needed. Stalin had already killed between 50-70 million people (about 10x the amount Hitler killed), so would we be praising him for freeing the world of the evil Soviet threat?

 

Chairman Mao, who was leader of what is now China by the end of the war would have been tried and executed for war crimes. This would have saved the lives of 60 million odd Chinese people.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier. The idea of WW2 being about good vs evil is utterly fictitious and falls apart under any scrutiny. We still occupy parts of Germany and America still occupies part of Japan.

 

In 200 years, school children will be taught a very different story concerning WW2

I really don't much care outside things that were not of my time nor conscience. I lost my home in Tinsley to a German bomb while still inside it and had to be dug out just ten days before Christmas 1940. If you have the time and inclination to follow history to such a level then I'm happy for you. But don't talk mne down to enhance your ego. It's unbecoming.

[charmer 10]

I really don't much care outside things that were not of my time nor conscience. I lost my home in Tinsley to a German bomb while still inside it and had to be dug out just ten days before Christmas 1940. If you have the time and inclination to follow history to such a level then I'm happy for you. But don't talk mne down to enhance your ego. It's unbecoming.

 

If you lost your home in December 1940 then a lot of what I mentioned was during your time.

 

I have not talked down to you. You bought a subject up which I find fascinating and I put my point of view across (AFTER you had put yours across). I just explained a few things and if you feel I was condescending then I apologise, but I have read through my post again and can't find where I have been

 

I would never use an internet forum (and especially a topic on the vulgarity and brutality of our species) to enhance my ego. When I need my ego enhancing I sleep with random ladies.

 

However, I would like to leave you with a question. After what had happened to your home, would you have happily killed a Nazi soldier (assuming you were old enough) a'la the two Micheals who killed Lee Rigby?

[SnailyBoy 10]

In this case, yes - its the only way these 2 scumbags would get what they deserve...

I know they will probably get life, but I think there are thousands of people who would be willing to act as executioner for these two.

 

What must it be like to want to kill another human being?

[charmer 10]

I would say that the concept should be that how did they not consider the taking of another person's life, arbitrarily, (ie "just like that") to bebeyingd acceptable.

 

That is the astounding thing. No matter what country a person comes from, the moral code of life is "Don't take another person's life".

 

Whether they are converts or born into Islam, their own scriptures state quite clearly,

"If you take a life, it's as if you have killed the whole of mankind."

"If you save a life, it's as if you have saved the whole of mankind."

 

Judicial killings (IE the death penalty as handed down in a court of law) are permitted under Islam, as some have pointed out above. killing in combat as one combatant (a Soldier) vs another, or if you are in a kill-or-be-killed situation, and you must save your own life or the life of another. (I'm thinking the scenario where someone is attempting to kill you or a loved one, say) but it is, as I say, if it's to preserve the life of someone else.

 

What these men did to Drummer Rigby were the actions of warped minds, not the Islam I follow.

 

 

Sorry for the double post but I have only just seen this reply. I really don't want to turn this into a religious debate. I just want to point one thing out and before I do I want to say that of the Abrahamic religions, Islam is my favourite (I am an athiest).

 

I assume that you are a Sunni Muslim, just because it is by far the most popular branch, especially in the western settled Islamic diaspora. I think you will find instructions to kill in both the Qu'ran and the Hadith. Admittedly there are contradictory passages that also instruct Muslims to cause no harm.

 

I believe you have misquoted the passages of the Qu'ran above. I believe it says something along the lines of "if anyone kills a person except for murder or spreading mischief in the land then it is as if they killed the whole of mankind".

 

It could be argued that in having engaged in an illegal war, Mr Rigby satisfied that criteria of being killed, ie he had commited murder and/or spread mischief, and therefore, under Islamic law, he could be killed.

 

Before anyone starts hating on Islam or the Qu'ran, read some history (and perhaps some other religious texts, Deuteronomy from the Bible may be a good starting point. You will see that of the major movements of humanity in the last 2000 years (I would say Christianity, Islam, Capitalism and Communism), Islam is by far and away the most peaceful. Muslims allowed both Christians and Jews the right to live and worship peacefully in lands under Islamic rule (see the Ottoman Empire and Islamic Spain for prime examples).

 

The other three movements are/were nowhere near as hospitable.