Channel 5: JFK's "real" killers revealed

[mjw47 10]

Harleyman and mjw47, great knowledgeable posts by both of you. I find myself swinging one way and then the other as I read them.

I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard of both the Kennedy deaths. Bobby's death sickened me even more than Jack's as at the time I saw his picking up of his dead brother's banner as an impossibly romantic thing to do.

For what it's worth, my gut feeling is that there was more to it than the official version and I've felt that way from the moment I first saw the newsreel pictures of Ruby killing Oswald. Not the Oliver Stone crap or anything like it but something. As I say, just a gut feeling.

 

Thanks for that Jim. You're right of course, it's only a gut feeling. How could it be anything else? My gut's telling me the same as yours, Harleyman differs as he is fully entitled to, that's what makes an interesting discussion.

 

I agree with you on Bobby also, I thought he would have made a great President & the fact that he was also killed in suspicious circumstances reinforces for me that there was more to it than is officially acknowledged.

[Dromedary 166]

There is also another conspiracy theory that is not very well known or discussed that was put forward by the author Hunter S Thompson. A journalist that covered many of the election campaigns with Nixon and others, and who also wrote Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

 

In it he suggests that Nixon had JFK killed because of the alleged Kennedy vote rigging that supposedly took place in Texas around the JFKvsNixon election. If the vote rigging was true then Nixon was robbed of becoming President at that time, so he took revenge, later to become President.

 

History shows how corrupt Nixon was and how he had to eventually resign as President. Resignation was also better than impeachment as that allowed him to keep being paid his presidential salary till he died, another point Thompson homed in on.

 

As far as Oswald is concerned I think he was a patsy.

 

The fatal shot that killed Kennedy must have come from the front as part of his skull, about 4 inch in diameter, flew several feet backward onto the back bonnet of his vehicle. In the films it was clearly visible and Jackie Kennedy could be seen trying to retrieve it, and was the real reason why Jackie Kennedy lept onto the back bonnet. The detailed autopsy photos also show it detached from the back of his head.

 

So, how much of this can be believed?

 

Did Kennedy and LBJ have the votes in Texas rigged to their advantage?

 

Did Ruby help in rigging those votes and kill Oswald just out of vengeance?

 

Can a bullet from a rifle, shot from behind, enter the head from the front and propel a fair sized chunk onto the back bonnet towards the direction of the shot?

 

The above seems to make more sense to me than the Oliver Stone film and yet seems to have been kept very quiet.

 

Just another take I thought may be interesting.

[melthebell 863]

Harleyman and mjw47, great knowledgeable posts by both of you. I find myself swinging one way and then the other as I read them.

I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard of both the Kennedy deaths.

 

i agree lol

 

as for where i was............i was still to be born Oo

[boboskins 10]

There is also another conspiracy theory that is not very well known or discussed that was put forward by the author Hunter S Thompson. A journalist that covered many of the election campaigns with Nixon and others, and who also wrote Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

 

In it he suggests that Nixon had JFK killed because of the alleged Kennedy vote rigging that supposedly took place in Texas around the JFKvsNixon election. If the vote rigging was true then Nixon was robbed of becoming President at that time, so he took revenge, later to become President.

 

History shows how corrupt Nixon was and how he had to eventually resign as President. Resignation was also better than impeachment as that allowed him to keep being paid his presidential salary till he died, another point Thompson homed in on.

 

As far as Oswald is concerned I think he was a patsy.

 

The fatal shot that killed Kennedy must have come from the front as part of his skull, about 4 inch in diameter, flew several feet backward onto the back bonnet of his vehicle. In the films it was clearly visible and Jackie Kennedy could be seen trying to retrieve it, and was the real reason why Jackie Kennedy lept onto the back bonnet. The detailed autopsy photos also show it detached from the back of his head.

 

So, how much of this can be believed?

 

Did Kennedy and LBJ have the votes in Texas rigged to their advantage?

 

Did Ruby help in rigging those votes and kill Oswald just out of vengeance?

 

Can a bullet from a rifle, shot from behind, enter the head from the front and propel a fair sized chunk onto the back bonnet towards the direction of the shot?

 

The above seems to make more sense to me than the Oliver Stone film and yet seems to have been kept very quiet.

 

Just another take I thought may be interesting.

 

 

Glad someone brought this up. After watching the documentary going into it I assumed that the Secret Service Officer was in a car in front of the Kennedy's. After seeing that he was behind how does someones head go back towards the direction of the bullet (same if it was LHO who fired the last shot) and not forward due to the inertia from the bullet? They never covered this in the documentary.

 

Back and to the left, back and to the left...

[wildbilly2 10]

Glad someone brought this up. After watching the documentary going into it I assumed that the Secret Service Officer was in a car in front of the Kennedy's. After seeing that he was behind how does someones head go back towards the direction of the bullet (same if it was LHO who fired the last shot) and not forward due to the inertia from the bullet? They never covered this in the documentary.

 

Back and to the left, back and to the left...

 

Little thing called Newtons Third Law of Motion.

[Total Chaos 10]

The guy doing the investigation for this programme seemed to have concluded that Kennedy was shot twice by Oswald then shot a third time in the back of the head accidentally by a secret service agent in the car behind. I found it very interesting.

 

Wrong,one missed.The shrapnel from this bullet hit JFK,this caused him to put his hands to his throat and shout they have shot me.Then the second Oswald bullet hit JFK threw the back of his neck,threw his hand into the Mayor's torso and because he had turned around it went down into his leg.The SS agent in front got the assault rifle,turned to shoot up at Oswald.The driver then put his foot down to get away and this caused the SS agent to jolt forward and because it was already locked and loaded and he had the safety off,accidently fired a shot into JFK's head.The SS agents use hollow points,thus causing the head to explode on impact.Oswalds bullets where not hollow point.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Total Chaos

[Harleyman 12]

There is also another conspiracy theory that is not very well known or discussed that was put forward by the author Hunter S Thompson. A journalist that covered many of the election campaigns with Nixon and others, and who also wrote Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

 

In it he suggests that Nixon had JFK killed because of the alleged Kennedy vote rigging that supposedly took place in Texas around the JFKvsNixon election. If the vote rigging was true then Nixon was robbed of becoming President at that time, so he took revenge, later to become President.

 

History shows how corrupt Nixon was and how he had to eventually resign as President. Resignation was also better than impeachment as that allowed him to keep being paid his presidential salary till he died, another point Thompson homed in on.

 

As far as Oswald is concerned I think he was a patsy.

 

The fatal shot that killed Kennedy must have come from the front as part of his skull, about 4 inch in diameter, flew several feet backward onto the back bonnet of his vehicle. In the films it was clearly visible and Jackie Kennedy could be seen trying to retrieve it, and was the real reason why Jackie Kennedy lept onto the back bonnet. The detailed autopsy photos also show it detached from the back of his head.

 

So, how much of this can be believed?

 

Did Kennedy and LBJ have the votes in Texas rigged to their advantage?

 

Did Ruby help in rigging those votes and kill Oswald just out of vengeance?

 

Can a bullet from a rifle, shot from behind, enter the head from the front and propel a fair sized chunk onto the back bonnet towards the direction of the shot?

 

The above seems to make more sense to me than the Oliver Stone film and yet seems to have been kept very quiet.

 

Just another take I thought may be interesting.

 

If that was so why is it that police and spectators said afterwards that the shots appeared to have come from behind and above the street which would place the location approx on the sixth floor of the Book Depository?

 

Why didn't Oswald join the rest of his fellow employees outside to see Kennedy's motorcade pass by?

 

Why was he just after the shots were fired seen on the fifth floor of the building and challenged and very unfortunately let go by a policeman?

 

Nothing in his behaviour was normal

 

If the killer shot came from the front where exactly was it fired from?

 

If you look at that alleged figure who appears to be pointing something from the grassy knoll it's just like making a shape from tea leaves. There were the dark shapes of trees mixed with sunlight beyond the fence and the combination made it appear that it was a man. That's my opinion anyway.

 

Why in all the years that have passed hasn't there been one single death bed confession?

 

Long before that in 1865 when Lincoln was assassinated and detective work was in the stone age they found a ton more evidence of involvement than they ever were able to dig up as far as a conspiracy was concerned in Kennedy's death.

 

It's easy to involve Nixon who was always the target of the far liberal left but when you're thrashing around for a plausible explanation then you look for a suitable scoundrel figure. Speaking of scoundrels Joe Kennedy senior fits into that category. Bootlegger, US Ambassador to the Court of St James who tried to convince Roosevelt that Britain's cause was hopleless against Hitler in 1940 and that Lend Lease was a waste of time, recruited Chicago Mob Boss Sam Giancana to get the vote out for Kennedy in that city by fair means or foul. In Chicago people voted often that election day and the dead were resurrected

 

Give Nixon his due. He ended a war that Kennedy and McNamara were up to their necks in by November 1963 and saved a lot more American lives in doing so.

 

I would believe in the case of Robert Kennedy's death that the Mob would have had good reason to be involved. You dont turn on the people who helped elect your brother and especially not the Mob. However trying to link an embittered Palestinian to the Mob might be a bit tricky

Edited November 21, 2013 by Harleyman

[Nineteen66 10]

mjw47 – I am glad to see that someone knows what they are talking about. You must have done a lot of reading on this particular subject. Oh what a tangled web it is, much more than anyone can imagine.

 

My message to anyone is that you cannot in any way look at this via a few documentaries; you have to get deep under the surface, looking at people who testified, looking at people who they did not want to testify, the intimidation from government towards a number of witnesses, the deaths of witnesses to certain event over a period of time. The fact that both the FBI and the CIA not only withheld evidence but that they also destroyed evidence. This is not speculation but after the event found out fact. As we know the truth is the truth, it does not need to be manufactured or guided. The Government even to this day 50 years on has not and will not release all the records relating to this event, as I understand thousands upon thousands of documents are still classified.

 

This is an honest website archive for anyone who wishes to delve further

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

 

mjw47 – Good to see that you pointed out about Kennedy to withdraw from Vietnam which was a NSAM (National Security Action Memorandum) order (although no formal announcement was to be made to the US people).

Kennedy privately told his Hyannis Port neighbour Larry Newman ‘I am going to get those guys out because we are going to find ourselves in a war that’s impossible to win.’ President Lyndon Johnson reversed this policy as soon as Kennedy was dead, and the result of that decision is there for all to see, 50,000 soldiers and an estimated goodness knows how many Vietnamese (some say one million) dead. To those who say why does it matter? This is one of the reasons why it does matter, it changes the course of history. The Military Industrial Complex however did very well out of it.

 

Oswald the lone nut in the way that it is portrayed? No, no, no. Both before he goes to Russia and after he comes back his links to the US intelligence/FBI pop up all over the place. I will try and post some other items on this subject, it’s very important within the whole scenario.

[mjw47 10]

Harleyman. Joseph Kennedy was an ambitious & ruthless man. He made a fortune out of finance, motion pictures- RKO- & he & Roosevelt's son James tied up a deal with Scottish distillers which made them the sole importer of Gordan's gin & Dewar's scotch in America.

Yes he peed off the Mafia, they thought they were going to get concessions for helping in the election. They didn't, & were not pleased. The Kennedy's also made an enemy out of J Edgar Hoover a man who ran the FBI like his own personal gang.

 

Hoovers MO was to get 'dirt' on every powerful politician he could & use it to his advantage. Only problem with the Kennedy's, was that although he had plenty of philandering evidence on them, they had some interesting cross dressing evidence on him. I believe it's known as 'mutually assured destruction'.

 

JFK of course had peed off the military General High Command by refusing to give way to them during the Cuban Crisis.

 

In an earlier post I said that one of the things I admired about the Kennedy's was the enemy's they had. Mafia, J Edgar & the Military High Command together with the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned of.

 

Say what you like about them, for all their faults, they annoyed the right people & had the balls of a Bull Elephant.

 

If he dabbled in Bootlegging who gives a damn? Prohibition was one of the stupidest laws ever enacted. Stupid laws should be ignored & treat with the contempt they deserve.

 

As for him attempting to keep America out of the War, why shouldn't he? He was an American & owed his loyalty to no one else, did he?

 

Why the British seem to think that everyone should drop everything & come running to our assistance whenever we need them is beyond me.

 

In the event he lost his eldest son Joe junior to the War.

 

Many more American parents lost their son's also, & I'll bet if you asked them afterwards if they wished Joseph Kennedy had been successful in keeping America out of it they would have said yes.

 

As to your comment that Kennedy & McNamara were up there necks in Vietnam at the time of JFK's murder, nothing could be further from the truth. Kennedy was on record as stating that he wanted the South Vietnamese under the leadership of Ngo Dinh Diem to fight the war with American backing but no major troop involvement.

 

He made a speech in which he stated.

 

'To introduce US Forces in large numbers there today, whilst it might have an initial military impact, would almost certainly lead to adverse political and, in the long run, adverse military consequences.'

 

And that Harleyman was as prophetic a speech as you will ever see, wasn't it?

 

At the time of Kennedy's death there were 16,000 American 'observers' in Vietnam & Kennedy had ordered the withdrawal of 1,000.

Under the Presidency of LBJ American troops reached a peak of 550,000 in 1968 with a death rate of 1,000 a month.

 

Don't blame Kennedy for Vietnam, he inherited American political involvement from the previous administration & was attempting to keep it to a minimum.

 

Oh & don't mention the name of Nixon in comparison to JFK.

 

Nixon was a criminal who disgraced his office, treat the constitution with contempt,made his country a laughing stock, & continued to draw his Presidential pension & wound up with a pardon, get out of jail free card.

 

For all his faults, Jack Kennedy was ten times the man that Richard Nixon was.

 

---------- Post added 21-11-2013 at 22:30 ----------

 

Nineteen66.

I had to go out whilst in the middle of composing my reply to Harleyman so missed your post until I submitted mine.

Hadn't heard about the conversation with his neighbour, that's interesting, & adds confirmation as to Kennedy's attitude regarding Vietnam.

 

It's always struck me as informative how most people that have actually experienced warfare tend to be doves with regard to further conflict.

Whilst people who have never seen a shot fired in anger are Hawkes, Reagan & Thatcher come to mind.

 

There is no doubt that the Kennedy's were not popular with a number of powerful people.

 

Cannot help thinking that at least one faction, if not an alliance were responsible for the deaths of both Jack & Bobby.

 

If Kennedy was determined to withdraw from Vietnam what would the financial loss be to the Military hardware suppliers?

We are talking Billions if not Trillions, motive for murder? Well people have been killed for less haven't they?

[Harleyman 12]

Harleyman. Joseph Kennedy was an ambitious & ruthless man. He made a fortune out of finance, motion pictures- RKO- & he & Roosevelt's son James tied up a deal with Scottish distillers which made them the sole importer of Gordan's gin & Dewar's scotch in America.

Yes he peed off the Mafia, they thought they were going to get concessions for helping in the election. They didn't, & were not pleased. The Kennedy's also made an enemy out of J Edgar Hoover a man who ran the FBI like his own personal gang.

 

Hoovers MO was to get 'dirt' on every powerful politician he could & use it to his advantage. Only problem with the Kennedy's, was that although he had plenty of philandering evidence on them, they had some interesting cross dressing evidence on him. I believe it's known as 'mutually assured destruction'.

 

JFK of course had peed off the military General High Command by refusing to give way to them during the Cuban Crisis.

 

In an earlier post I said that one of the things I admired about the Kennedy's was the enemy's they had. Mafia, J Edgar & the Military High Command together with the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned of.

 

Say what you like about them, for all their faults, they annoyed the right people & had the balls of a Bull Elephant.

 

If he dabbled in Bootlegging who gives a damn? Prohibition was one of the stupidest laws ever enacted. Stupid laws should be ignored & treat with the contempt they deserve.

 

As for him attempting to keep America out of the War, why shouldn't he? He was an American & owed his loyalty to no one else, did he?

 

Why the British seem to think that everyone should drop everything & come running to our assistance whenever we need them is beyond me.

 

In the event he lost his eldest son Joe junior to the War.

 

Many more American parents lost their son's also, & I'll bet if you asked them afterwards if they wished Joseph Kennedy had been successful in keeping America out of it they would have said yes.

 

As to your comment that Kennedy & McNamara were up there necks in Vietnam at the time of JFK's murder, nothing could be further from the truth. Kennedy was on record as stating that he wanted the South Vietnamese under the leadership of Ngo Dinh Diem to fight the war with American backing but no major troop involvement.

 

He made a speech in which he stated.

 

'To introduce US Forces in large numbers there today, whilst it might have an initial military impact, would almost certainly lead to adverse political and, in the long run, adverse military consequences.'

 

And that Harleyman was as prophetic a speech as you will ever see, wasn't it?

 

At the time of Kennedy's death there were 16,000 American 'observers' in Vietnam & Kennedy had ordered the withdrawal of 1,000.

Under the Presidency of LBJ American troops reached a peak of 550,000 in 1968 with a death rate of 1,000 a month.

 

Don't blame Kennedy for Vietnam, he inherited American political involvement from the previous administration & was attempting to keep it to a minimum.

 

Oh & don't mention the name of Nixon in comparison to JFK.

 

Nixon was a criminal who disgraced his office, treat the constitution with contempt,made his country a laughing stock, & continued to draw his Presidential pension & wound up with a pardon, get out of jail free card.

 

For all his faults, Jack Kennedy was ten times the man that Richard Nixon was.

 

---------- Post added 21-11-2013 at 22:30 ----------

 

Nineteen66.

I had to go out whilst in the middle of composing my reply to Harleyman so missed your post until I submitted mine.

Hadn't heard about the conversation with his neighbour, that's interesting, & adds confirmation as to Kennedy's attitude regarding Vietnam.

 

It's always struck me as informative how most people that have actually experienced warfare tend to be doves with regard to further conflict.

Whilst people who have never seen a shot fired in anger are Hawkes, Reagan & Thatcher come to mind.

 

There is no doubt that the Kennedy's were not popular with a number of powerful people.

 

Cannot help thinking that at least one faction, if not an alliance were responsible for the deaths of both Jack & Bobby.

 

If Kennedy was determined to withdraw from Vietnam what would the financial loss be to the Military hardware suppliers?

We are talking Billions if not Trillions, motive for murder? Well people have been killed for less haven't they?

 

mjw47

 

It would do you no harm to read the work of Seymour M. Hersh titled "The dark side of Camerlot" After reading that you might just take off those rose tinted glasses for a spell. Now Hersh is hardly the type of far right republican who would have hated a President who was a Catholic and also a left leaning liberal. Hersh in fact is a columnist for several newspapers and his politics are absolutely leftist. No bias, lies or propaganda therefore.

 

We all know that Kennedy suffered from Addison's disease, a chronic back problem that kept him chair bound at times and maybe on testimony from 4 retired secret service agents many years later that his chief od staff Dave Powers brought girls to the White House for Kennedy;s pleasure. Let's forget the adultry part since anything goes but Powers told the S.S agents to let them pass without any security checks whatsosever.

 

That was an aside from his other reckless adventures with women, adventures that if photographed could have been used by any country hostile to America as blackmail. In short Kennedy was the most reckless and irresponsible President to ever occupy the White House

 

You are also aware that he was active in planning to kill Castro, President Trujillo of the Dominican republic and Patrice Lumumba, the latter a democratically elected President of that country who had led the fight for independence from Belgium. Trujillo was a brutal dictator and his loss would have been a blessing but nevertheless one leader plotting the death of another is just shabby and degrading.

 

Now if Joe Kennedy Senior had had his way it leaves an interesting scenario in it's place. Japan would have launched an attack on Pearl Harbour anyway and America would have found itself fighting a war on it's own. Britain might just have sued for peace without Roosevelt's covert support in 1940 and the absence of Lend Lease, Churchill deposed and replaced by someone who would have been equivalent to LaVal the leader of Vichy France.

Hitler in accordance with the Axis agreement would have declared war on America following Pearl Harbour just as he actually did. So America in the position of facing an enemy to the east and an enemy to the west. No British Navy to help either in the Atlantic or the Pacific and with Britain out of it Hitler would have occupied without any resistence the Irish republic to have access to the west coast where he would build his U-Boat pens, air bases and other naval facilities to take on the US navy. Hitler BTW wouldnt have given a toss about Irish neutrality with the rest of the British Isles now a potential part of the Third Reich

 

Something to think about even if I went off track a little. Joe by the way was one of those what were called "Funk hole dwellers" in 1940. F.H Dwellers were politicians, dipolmats and others of a privileged group who moved to quarters in the English countryside to escape the Blitz.

 

At least the Royal family stayed put which was one up on the head of America's "royal family" who was more concerned about the welfare of his ass than his public image

 

A further thought on Kennedy and Vietnam in response to your quote of Kennedy's" prophetic words" Had Kennedy withdrawn his advisors and followed through on his policy of letting the Diem regime fight the north alone it would have been a short lived war indeed. Diem and his corrupt regime were no match for Ho Ch Minh and his well equipped and seasoned army. The quick fall of South Vietnam to the North Vietnamese would have been seen as a major foreign policy disaster at the height of the Cold War and only an assurance that the Domino Theory was in fact a a reality. Kennedy himself might have been impeached or kicked out of office in the election scheduled for 1964. It took another 10 years for the American public to become disillusioned with the war and enough to destroy Johnson but the Soviets and the Chinese also learned that the US was prepared to face up to Commumist aggression even if the end result wasnt quite was expected

Edited November 22, 2013 by Harleyman

[mjw47 10]

Harleyman. You seriously need to get over your hatred of the Kennedy's. Tell me, does it bother you that much, that whatever you do, they will always be more American than you?

 

Their family on the male side first arrived in America in 1858 in Boston. On his mothers side his grandfather was 'Honey Fitz' Fitzgerald Mayor of Boston, the son of Irish immigrants from Limerick & Cavan.

 

As for staying put during times of trouble the Royal Family & the Government of Britain had arrangements in place to flee to Canada in the event of the Germans establishing a Beach head on British soil.

 

You,& your comrades,wound up fighting,& losing, in Vietnam because of Nixon & Johnson.

 

Had Kennedy survived events would very probably been different. Your hatred of Kennedy & support for scum like Nixon does you no favours

 

America has lost its way since the optimism & hope of the Kennedy years, but apparently you cannot see it.

 

'One leader plotting the death of another is just shabby & degrading'. That apply to Reagan & the airstrike on Gaddafi's compound housing his family?

Edited November 22, 2013 by mjw47

[Longcol 602]

The fatal shot that killed Kennedy must have come from the front as part of his skull, about 4 inch in diameter, flew several feet backward onto the back bonnet of his vehicle. In the films it was clearly visible and Jackie Kennedy could be seen trying to retrieve it, and was the real reason why Jackie Kennedy lept onto the back bonnet. The detailed autopsy photos also show it detached from the back of his head.

 

So, how much of this can be believed?

 

 

Can a bullet from a rifle, shot from behind, enter the head from the front and propel a fair sized chunk onto the back bonnet towards the direction of the shot?

 

 

Observe - see the slow motions of bullets hitting containers and see the direction where contents and containers go.

 

 

Unsurprisingly no footage of a human head hit by a bullet due to acute shortage of volunteers.

 

---------- Post added 22-11-2013 at 00:52 ----------

 

At the time of Kennedy's death there were 16,000 American 'observers' in Vietnam & Kennedy had ordered the withdrawal of 1,000.

 

And, has already been pointed out to you before, that is a big increase on the 900 when he was elected .

Edited November 22, 2013 by Longcol