New Irish study on 'brain drain' emigration

[L00b 441]

Levels of emigration of skilled people from recession-hit economies.

 

A topic which crops up very frequently in threads about austerity, taxation levels and related discussions, particularly when the dicussion veers onto the usual "they [top rate taxpayers] will leave in droves if taxation is ramped up" "well let them and good riddance" tit-for-tat.

 

Well, here is some documented proof at last, for Ireland. I'd wager the findings would be substantially true for the UK.

A year-long study of Irish emigration has found clear evidence that a disproportionate number of highly-educated young people are leaving the country, with rural Ireland affected most.

 

62% of recent emigrants have a tertiary qualification of three years or more.

 

The study was conducted by researchers from UCC's Institute for Social Science in the 21st Century and the college's Department of Geography

(source, study (pdf))

 

Interesting point to note: half of emigrants leave current (tax-generating) employment, only 25% are unemployed.

 

Discuss?

[Mecky 10]

But they rarely do and it's just an empty threat as everyone knows. Time to call their bluff

[WeX 10]

But they rarely do and it's just an empty threat as everyone knows. Time to call their bluff

 

It does happen and is happening right now.

 

Wealthy French are moving to Britain to escape Hollande's plan for 75% tax on rich.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174704/Wealthy-French-moving-Britain-escape-Hollandes-plan-75-cent-tax-rich.html

 

or is there an ulterior motive behind goading the educated to leave a country by the political left?? less people to scrutinize the socialist doctrine maybe?

[truman 10]

But they rarely do and it's just an empty threat as everyone knows. Time to call their bluff

 

Did you read the study that Loob posted? Or is the UK somehow different to France and Ireland?

[Janus 28]

I’ve always felt that if an individual really wants to go and live in another country they will , regardless of the tax situation at "home". I tend to think that there has to be more to the desire/interest than how much they are being taxed. There are (or were) exceptions years ago with examples like pop stars of the day being taxed at 97.5 pence in the pound.

 

I would guess that the regular California sunshine (if that is the part where they are) plays a crucial role for Cowell & Robbie Williams for example, and financial reasons are most likely secondary.

[truman 10]

I’ve always felt that if an individual really wants to go and live in another country they will , regardless of the tax situation at "home". I tend to think that there has to be more to the desire/interest than how much they are being taxed. There are (or were) exceptions years ago with examples like pop stars of the day being taxed at 97.5 pence in the pound.

 

I would guess that the regular California sunshine (if that is the part where they are) plays a crucial role for Cowell & Robbie Williams for example, and financial reasons are most likely secondary.

 

But higher tax may just be the little extra push they need to help them make up their minds..

[Happ Hazzard 10]

The likes of Cowell and Williams spend plenty of time in both America and Britain, tax rates will just mean they spend a few more days in one or the other to ensure they are considered as residing there.

 

Tax rates need to be fair to the individual, otherwise the individual will go elsewhere. The government should set spending according to what they have coming in, not spend and then figure out how to get the money.

[Vague_Boy 10]

But they rarely do

 

I guess you're too young to remember the 1970s, when the term "brain drain" was very prevalent. But surely you remember the space year 2008?

 

Britain is experiencing the worst "brain drain" of any country as highly qualified professionals settle abroad, an authoritative international study showed yesterday.

 

Record numbers of Britons are leaving - many of them doctors, teachers and engineers - in the biggest exodus for almost 50 years.

 

There are now 3.247 million British-born people living abroad, of whom more than 1.1 million are highly-skilled university graduates, say the researchers.

 

More than three quarters of these professionals have settled abroad for more than 10 years, according to the study by the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

 

LINK

 

The brain drain was very real in the 60s and 70s

 

The term 'brain drain' was adopted in the 1960s in the context of concerns the United Kingdom was losing skilled scientific and engineering personnel to other countries. Although the term is used in a variety of academic, policy and popular discussions about the international mobility of scientists, this project sought to rectify the absence of scholarly literature analysing the original 'brain drain' debate.

 

The dataset comprises of 19 oral history interviews with scientists and engineers who emigrated to the United States or Canada in the 1950s or 1960s as well as British policymakers involved in any way in the 'brain drain' debate at this time. Also included is the transcript of a 'witness seminar' that brought officials and former emigres together to discuss their recollections.

 

LINK

 

Still with income tax rates at the time being 83%, is anyone really surprised?

 

Anyone with a basic understanding of human nature that is.

[Janus 28]

I agree with you on the fairness HH-unfairness will always upset people whatever the subject, just like injustice does.

 

I`ve never understood fully why we cannot have a flat rate of income tax for everyone. After personal allowances, paying 20% of a taxable income of 10k would be 2k in tax.

 

After personal allowances, paying 20% of a taxable income of 100k would be 20k in tax. We would all be losing a fith of our income to the taxman.

 

To me that is fair. I see no just reason to tax people more just because they earn more.Also, for the same reason I see no just reason to C/tax people more because they live in a large house. (For the record, my income is about 10k net)

Edited October 1, 2013 by Janus

[Supertramp 10]

I agree with you on the fairness HH-unfairness will always upset people whatever the subject, just like injustice does.

 

I`ve never understood fully why we cannot have a flat rate of income tax for everyone. After personal allowances, paying 20% of a taxable income of 10k would be 2k in tax.

 

After personal allowances, paying 20% of a taxable income of 100k would be 20k in tax. We would all be losing a fith of our income to the taxman.

 

To me that is fair. I see no just reason to tax people more just because they earn more.Also, for the same reason I see no just reason to C/tax people more because they live in a large house. (For the record, my income is about 10k net)

 

Because people are people and don't like other people to be successful.

[L00b 441]

But they rarely do and it's just an empty threat as everyone knows. Time to call their bluff

We're not talking bankers here, Mecky (although they will no doubt represent a share of the numbers).

 

On the evidence of the numbers, in Ireland that time has gone and the emigrant's hand is quite clearly stronger. Enough to worry the Taoiseach (Irish PM) and his Ministers, who are openly recognising the impact that excess taxation may have on the issue.

 

Emigration levels there are now four times as high as they were just seven years ago.

 

EDIT - I work in a very highly-specialised sector of legal practice, where MSc is fast losing ground to PhD as the standard entry-level qualification when acceding to the profession (as a trainee), but wherein "jobs for life" still exist if you can cut it and stay at that level.

 

Exact same in Ireland, when I worked there in that very same sector 2004-2008. Small country, niche profession = I knew personally more or less every player there across all the firms, from trainee to partner.

 

As of today (01 Oct) at least 40% of those who entered the profession in Ireland since 2004 have now left for the UK, AU and the US. Including 4 ex-colleagues of mine. All biotech/engineering MSc and PhDs, with later legal qualifications.

Edited October 1, 2013 by L00b

[Mecky 10]

It does happen and is happening right now.

 

Wealthy French are moving to Britain to escape Hollande's plan for 75% tax on rich.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174704/Wealthy-French-moving-Britain-escape-Hollandes-plan-75-cent-tax-rich.html

 

or is there an ulterior motive behind goading the educated to leave a country by the political left?? less people to scrutinize the socialist doctrine maybe?

 

That's not what Gerrard Depideu (spelling) admitted to in the end

 

---------- Post added 01-10-2013 at 14:20 ----------

 

We're not talking bankers here, Mecky (although they will no doubt represent a share of the numbers).

 

On the evidence of the numbers, in Ireland that time has gone and the emigrant's hand is quite clearly stronger. Enough to worry the Taoiseach (Irish PM) and his Ministers, who are openly recognising the impact that excess taxation may have on the issue.

 

Emigration levels there are now four times as high as they were just seven years ago.

 

EDIT - I work in a very highly-specialised sector of legal practice, where MSc is fast losing ground to PhD as the standard entry-level qualification when acceding to the profession (as a trainee), but wherein "jobs for life" still exist if you can cut it and stay at that level.

 

Exact same in Ireland, when I worked there in that very same sector 2004-2008. Small country, niche profession = I knew personally more or less every player there across all the firms, from trainee to partner.

 

As of today (01 Oct) at least 40% of those who entered the profession in Ireland since 2004 have now left for the UK, AU and the US. Including 4 ex-colleagues of mine. All biotech/engineering MSc and PhDs, with later legal qualifications.

 

Tonnes of Irish leave Ireland for the UK, they always have done and probably always will. It has nothing to do with Irish tax rates