Is Turkey heading towards becoming an Islamic state?

[Phanerothyme 12]

Are they infallible, no, are they vastly more credible, yes.

 

Credibility is in the mind of the beholder. Fallibility is not. Appeal to authority is a common fallacious argument.

[WeX 10]

Credibility is in the mind of the beholder. Fallibility is not. Appeal to authority is a common fallacious argument.

 

Don't be stupid. Credibility is about the quality of being believed or trusted. An anonymous comment of a forum member has very little while a centuries old think tank with many noteworthy and trusted representatives world wide has gained a large amount of credibility and so is trustworthy by comparison.

 

Disregarding any evidence just because it contradicts your own without providing any proof to back up your own claims, is worthless.

[flamingjimmy 10]

Which itself took influence from the Charter of Medina (Sahifat al-Madina) set by Muhammad 11 centuries earlier.

Lol yeah Mohammed invented constitutionalism that's hilarious.

 

I'm sorry but you simply can't get away with pretending the US constitution is a continuation of a tradition started by Mohammed, that is absurd.

 

All the ideas previously existed, and there were many written constitutions before it.

 

That 'the charter of medina is the world's first written constitution' is quite simply a lie that is repeated by evangelical Muslims in an attempt to give their prophet greater authority.

 

 

Dr. Robert D. Crane (adviser to Nixon) said that Thomas Jefferson (who drafted the "Declaration of Independence" and contributed to the American constitution) was deeply influenced by Islam.

What do you think influenced him more, Islam or the enlightenment? Mohammed or Thomas Paine?

 

C'mon man the influence of Islam on the developement of the US constitution is minimal at best.

 

Unfortunately-the Muslim world has drifted away from the brilliant example established in Madina. Today these so called 'Islamic' governments do not follow principles of democratic confederation laid down in the Charter of Madina.

What democratic confederation? The charter of medina may be relatively liberal for it's time in term of religious freedom but what it certainly was not, is democratic.

[ronthenekred 10]

Secularism is hard to define in Turkey, according to Fadi Hakura of London-based think tank Chatham House. Turkey is constitutionally a secular state, but secularism seems to have taken a unique shape, because of "historical and geographical circumstances in the country".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20028295

 

What unique shape? It's either secular or it isn't. You've even quoted "Fadi Hakura as stating that secularism is hard to define..what is it that you agree with "hard to define" that he finds hard to define?

 

Don't be stupid. Credibility is about the quality of being believed or trusted. An anonymous comment of a forum member has very little while a centuries old think tank with many noteworthy and trusted representatives world wide has gained a large amount of credibility and so is trustworthy by comparison.

 

So every time you make a comment we assume you make it on the basis you've consulted a think tank? and if not we're to assume you're a bit "stupid" because you're not "credible"?

 

Disregarding any evidence just because it contradicts your own without providing any proof to back up your own claims, is worthless.

 

I haven't disregarded anything..My comment was based on the term and definition of secular.

 

"Critics who argue that the Turkish state's support for and regulation of Sunni religious institutions – including mandatory religious education for children deemed by the state to be Muslims – amount to de facto violations of secularism. Debate arises over the issue of to what degree religious observance ought to be restricted to the private sphere – most famously in connection with the issues of head-scarves and religious-based political parties (cf. Welfare Party, AKP). The issue of an independent Greek Orthodox seminary is also a matter of controversy in regard to Turkey's accession to the European Union, the reason being that it makes no sense for Turkey to completely oppress a small theological education center when it funds thousands more.[citation needed] Also the fact that only Sunni Muslims receive state salaries when working as appointed clergy is another issue being criticised.

Reforms going in the direction of secularism have been completed under Atatürk (abolition of the Caliphate, etc..).

However, Turkey is not strictly a secular state:

there is no separation between religion and State

there is a tutelage of religion by the state

However, each is free of his religious beliefs.

Religion is mentioned on the identity documents and there is an administration called "Presidency of Religious Affairs" or Diyanet[14] which exploits Islam to legitimize sometimes State and manages 77,500 mosques. This state agency, established by Ataturk (1924), finance only Sunni Muslim worship. Other religions must ensure a financially self-sustaining running and they face administrative obstacles during operation.[15]

When harvesting tax, all Turkish citizens are equal. The tax rate is not based on religion. However, through the "Presidency of Religious Affairs" or Diyanet, Turkish citizens are not equal in the use of revenue. The Presidency of Religious Affairs, which has a budget over U.S. $ 2.5 billion in 2012, finance only Sunni Muslim worship.

This situation presents a theological problem, insofar as the religion of Prophet Muhammad stipulates, through the notion of haram (Qur'an, Surah 6, verse 152), that we must "give full measure and full weight in all justice”.

However, since it was set up, Diyanet, through taxation, use the resources of non-Sunni citizens to fund its administration and only Sunni places of worship.

For exemple, Câferî Muslims (mostly Azeris) and Alevi Bektashi (mostly Turkmen) participate in the financing of the mosques and the salaries of Sunni imams, while their places of worship, which are not officially recognized by the State, don't receive any funding.

Theoretically, Turkey, through the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), recognizes the civil, political and cultural rights of non-Muslim minorities.

In practice, Turkey only recognizes Greek, Armenian and Jewish religious minorities without granting them all the rights mentioned in the Treaty of Lausanne.

Alevi Bektashi Câferî Muslims,[16] Latin Catholics and Protestants are not recognized officially.

[flamingjimmy 10]

What unique shape? It's either secular or it isn't.

Not quite, there are relative levels of secularism.

 

For example here in the UK we pretty much have freedom of religion, however we also have 26 Bishops sitting in the house of lords choosing our laws and we have an established state religion with our head of state as head of the church.

 

Disgusting when you think about it isn't it? If only we had a decent constitution.

Edited June 3, 2013 by flamingjimmy

[Phanerothyme 12]

Don't be stupid. Credibility is about the quality of being believed or trusted. An anonymous comment of a forum member has very little while a centuries old think tank with many noteworthy and trusted representatives world wide has gained a large amount of credibility and so is trustworthy by comparison.

 

That is a value judgement and itself is not evidence of anything other than your opinion. Chatham House may have evidence to support your assertion, but you haven't produced any of it for this discussion, you've merely reiterated what you think their conclusions are.

[Hillpig 10]

We made a mistake in not assisting the Greeks in 1922. Constantinople would have become Christian again and the Turks could have gone back to what they are good at, raising sheep.

[ronthenekred 10]

Not quite, there are relative levels of secularism.

 

For example here in the UK we pretty much have freedom of religion, however we also have 26 Bishops sitting in the house of lords choosing our laws and we have an established state religion with our head of state as head of the church.

 

Disgusting when you think about it isn't it? If only we had a decent constitution.

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe we have major issues in this country regarding State and religion. There is a point to be made regarding Turkey's position on monarchy, at least they abolished it.

 

Working on the assumptions of "relative levels of secularism" I wonder what country/nation is really secular (devoid of religion from state) that is.

[cuttsie 1,091]

It will happen eventually. What happens if it spreads to the Turkish bit of Cyprus it could be interesting. What will happen to turkeys NATO membership if they go all Islamist?

There is no Turkish bit in Cyprus . The area you refer to is under a non legal occupation by a member of NATO.

[Shogun 10]

There is no Turkish bit in Cyprus . The area you refer to is under a non legal occupation by a member of NATO.

 

You are opening a box of frogs there mate,I spent a lot of time in Cyprus and I do know a lot about the history of the place.the island was a part of the ottoman empire a long time before we started interfering.

[dosxuk 10]

There is no Turkish bit in Cyprus . The area you refer to is under a non legal occupation by a member of NATO.

 

Depends if you're referring to Cyprus the country or Cyprus the island.

 

I think it's quite clear that the poster meant the island, but since you also think the Moor is at the 'rear' end of the city centre we should make allowances when it comes to your use of common sense.

[cuttsie 1,091]

You are opening a box of frogs there mate,I spent a lot of time in Cyprus and I do know a lot about the history of the place.the island was a part of the ottoman empire a long time before we started interfering.

I must have got it wrong then.

 

---------- Post added 03-06-2013 at 23:34 ----------

 

Depends if you're referring to Cyprus the country or Cyprus the island.

 

I think it's quite clear that the poster meant the island, but since you also think the Moor is at the 'rear' end of the city centre we should make allowances when it comes to your use of common sense.

Common sense tells me to answer posts without getting personal.