O.K. then what or who is God?

[Ryedo40 10]

Didn't manage to reply earlier, so I thought I would now.

 

...if you genuinely believe in the punishment for bad actions then you're less likely to commit them and thus less likely to believe you will punished because your belief states that you will be rewarded.

 

Possibly. But I also guess a person could spend a life time worrying that they aren't living up to their god's requirements(and maybe that person hasn't from time to time), so they become extremely worried about dying.

 

I disagree with this, again (and I stress) strictly in my experience those who have no spiritual dimension in their life have been much more fearful regardless of the amount of pain they are in.

 

I'm not so sure. I've known mostly thinking atheists and cultural Christians. It has been my experience that cultural Christians tend to worry more about death(partly because of concerns about hell/punishment) than those who don't hold those beliefs.

 

To be honest though, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by spiritual dimension. IMO, the term spiritual is a mystical sounding nonsense word that is used to express a persons current emotional state.

 

So if you mean that holding some sort of comforting belief where you live on after death – an oxymoron I know – then maybe it can help. But I haven't come across anyone like that(except for cultural Christians).

 

I don't think that the belief in God itself provides comfort,

 

Not god belief itself, but the attributes and behaviours given to that god.

 

IMO, god and the religions that define them are self-serving mechanisms that have been invented and shaped through peoples fears, needs, biases, ignorances and insecurities; so naturally those god beliefs and religions are going to perpetuate those fears, needs and biases, etc – while providing rules or a sort of placebo that helps ease some of those fears & insecurities, etc.

 

I think it's the personal relationship with yourself that allows you to accept who you are and allay the fear.

 

I think that can also be true.

 

I think God has become popular because it has become interwoven with political motivation and the institutions that have 'the power' in religion are also those that hold the wealth - and, especially in the middle ages, that wealth was the cornerstone of rules, regulation, fear, life and death.

 

Definitely. But even in their earliest development, god beliefs would have become popular because of peoples insecurities and fears. So it wouldn't be long before you've got some sort of shaman running the show and making an easy living by having everyone dance to his fiddle. The next minute you've got full blown religious/political institutions making sure people dance to his fiddle.

 

I'm disagreeing*only*with the premise that people believe because they fear and need an external comforter - I just simply don't think this is the case.

 

I think it generally is the case. And it's not just a religious thing. For example, people once believed – and in some places still do – that curses are real. Because that person fears the curse, they find ways to remove the curse(giving them comfort and peace of mind). Some might even find ways to prevent curse being placed on them in the first place. I think religions pretty much operate in the same way.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Ryedo40

[Ryedo40 10]

Rydoe i do understand and recognise the truth in what you express.

In the case of theists i know people who have remarked on the restrictions and constraints religion have placed on them.,thats more likely to be an issue with people who have been too strictly pressured to attend services and abide by rules etc it would explain why they feel liberated when they give up practicing their religions,though many of them whose faith has remained with them do seem to return to the church at a later stage.I think it all depends on the indvidual and their life experiences.

 

When it comes down to fear, insecurity and anxiety problems i think you are right to say it can apply to both groups.Im inclined to believe its more about the individual and nothing to do with religion,if people have a propensity towards those issues they will experience those problems whether atheist or theist.

.

 

Yes, but to say religion has nothing to do with it, isn't quite right. Yes, it's down to the individual, but if those individuals get so wrapped up in religion, and that religion has got some sort of crazy or extreme punishment for certain behaviours(even if there isn't really anything wrong with those behaviours), then it's likely those individuals will become more fearful, anxious and insecure if they have those behaviours - or if they are around others who have those behaviours.

[janie48 98]

Yes, but to say religion has nothing to do with it, isn't quite right. Yes, it's down to the individual but if those individuals get so wrapped up in religion, and that religion has got some sort of crazy or extreme punishment for certain behaviours(even if there isn't really anything wrong with those behaviours), then it's likely those individuals will become more fearful, anxious and insecure if they have those behaviours - or if they are around others who have those behaviours.

 

Thats only when religious practices become obsessive and out of control, and the end result is fanaticism.

 

I don't think religion has had that affect on me yet,but you better not come too near, just in case.

Edited November 29, 2012 by janie48

[Lockjaw 11]

I don't argue vehemently,if i appear to its only with people who are sarcastic and patronising like you are.

And i'm sure the evidence of that would fill more then one page.

 

... and yet you can't provide any?

[PaliRichard 10]

Didn't manage to reply earlier, so I thought I would now.

 

 

 

Possibly. But I also guess a person could spend a life time worrying that they aren't living up to their god's requirements(and maybe that person hasn't from time to time), so they become extremely worried about dying[/Quote]

 

It is possible, without speaking to every Theist I suppose we will never know, but I don't think it's common amongst those that believe to 'worry' that they aren't living up to God's requirements. I certainly can't recall having met a Theist that spends their time worrying about it.

 

I'm not so sure. I've known mostly thinking atheists and cultural Christians. It has been my experience that cultural Christians tend to worry more about death(partly because of concerns about hell/punishment) than those who don't hold those beliefs[/Quote]

 

I'm hazarding a guess at what you mean by cultural Christians so forgive me if I get it wrong. In these cases I'm more inclined to agree with you, as I said before I think there are two distinct type of religious person, and one has no more understanding of religion that the 'average Joe'.

 

To be honest though, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by spiritual dimension. IMO, the term spiritual is a mystical sounding nonsense word that is used to express a persons current emotional state[/Quote]

 

To be honest 'spiritual' is not a word I like either, I used it in this context to show I wasn't referring to merely people of 'X' religion or organised religion on the whole but people who have any kind of 'trust' in an outseide entity/authority that allows the personal relationship I was talking about to develop, rather than those who are simply comfortable within themselves without that outside influence.

 

So if you mean that holding some sort of comforting belief where you live on after death – an oxymoron I know – then maybe it can help. But I haven't come across anyone like that(except for cultural Christians)[/Quote]

 

I'm not necessarily talking about a belief in life after death, as I said to Redwhine, that's a bit of a narrow and/or innacurate understanding of the religious on the whole. I'm talking about the personal understanding that anyone, religious or not can get by truly understanding themselves and their place in the universe.

 

 

Not god belief itself, but the attributes and behaviours given to that god.

 

IMO, god and the religions that define them are self-serving mechanisms that have been invented and shaped through peoples fears, needs, biases, ignorances and insecurities; so naturally those god beliefs and religions are going to perpetuate those fears, needs and biases, etc – while providing rules or a sort of placebo that helps ease some of those fears & insecurities, etc.[/Quote]

 

I agree with part of this and disagree with part.

 

I don't think it really has anything to do with the attributes and behaviours attributed to that God (although I may be being a little black and white saying that) but the personal analysis that can come from opening yourself to the belief that there is something 'more' than you.

 

In this way I agree that it is, or can be very much a similar process to a placebo.

 

Definitely. But even in their earliest development, god beliefs would have become popular because of peoples insecurities and fears. So it wouldn't be long before you've got some sort of shaman running the show and making an easy living by having everyone dance to his fiddle. The next minute you've got full blown religious/political institutions making sure people dance to his fiddle[/Quote]

 

I think in even the most basic 'religious' system fear and insecurity only plays a part though. I couldn't say for certain but I think if these beliefs came about simply on the basis of providing security then they would be rather one dimensional and not last very long. There will be elements of that within them, but they will be part of a much bigger picture that ultimately has the aim of providing a 'meaning'. You could say that meaning is a safety blanket, but in that case it's a safety blanket that most people, religious or otherwise cling to, and by no means exclusive to the religious.

 

I think it generally is the case. And it's not just a religious thing. For example, people once believed – and in some places still do – that curses are real. Because that person fears the curse, they find ways to remove the curse(giving them comfort and peace of mind). Some might even find ways to prevent curse being placed on them in the first place. I think religions pretty much operate in the same way.

 

I think what we're both saying (and I don't presume to speak for you so correct me if I'm wrong) is that people fear, and people need comfort, some are religious and some are not.

 

I have no disagreement here, my original comment was to question the opinion that 'religious' people believe in God because they fear death - I'm sure some do, and I haven't denied that - but as a blanket statement I think it is incorrect and shows no understanding of the mechanics of religion at all.

[Ryedo40 10]

I think what we're both saying (and I don't presume to speak for you so correct me if I'm wrong) is that people fear, and people need comfort, some are religious and some are not.

 

Well, yes.

 

Just to try and clarify what I'm saying:

 

I think at their origin, god beliefs – or belief in spirits, etc – arose because of people's tendency to apply agency towards events(why did that earthquake happen/who or what caused it) and their environment(why does that tree exist/who or what made it). And then there is general fear/paranoia of what is in the environment(there's something in them woods/I feel like I'm being watched). And as you say, people would have been searching for meaning(why am I here/ who made me/what happens when I die). All of the above would have become interwoven: a mixed bag beliefs and answers.

 

Those beliefs and answers would have been comforting(we go somewhere nice when we die) and others would have given them a sense of security(our god will protect us if we do X/our god will protect us from X); others would be fearful(the earthquake is a sign our god is angry, we must do X/we must kill X or god will kill/harm us); those who don't do X or believe in X would have been seen as dangerous (causing more fear and insecurity amongst believers).

 

All of that would have gone into shaping their culture, religions and their god.

 

Obviously, as people begin to understand more about their environment and others, their insecurities and fears change or diminish; and after a great deal of struggle/conflict(against those who fear change), old gods die out or are replaced with new ones – or dropped altogether. The religious holy books that encourage past fears and insecurities pretty much become useless, unbelievable baggage - and that's part of the reason why we have believers like Janie who, being part of that transition of change, discard a great deal of those old beliefs.

 

Ignorance, fear, insecurity gives rise to superstition, conspiracy theories, anti-vax movements, god beliefs, religion, you name it. And all of it pretty much revolves around peoples ignorance and the need to avoid being harmed, survive or avoid death.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Ryedo40

[PaliRichard 10]

Well, yes.

 

Just to try and clarify what I'm saying:

 

I think at their origin, god beliefs – or belief in spirits, etc – arose because of people's tendency to apply agency towards events(why did that earthquake happen/who or what caused it) and their environment(why does that tree exist/who or what made it). And then there is general fear/paranoia of what is in the environment(there's something in them woods/I feel like I'm being watched). And as you say, people would have been searching for meaning(why am I here/ who made me/what happens when I die). All of the above would have become interwoven: a mixed bag beliefs and answers.

 

Those beliefs and answers would have been comforting(we go somewhere nice when we die) and others would have given them a sense of security(our god will protect us if we do X/our god will protect us from X); others would be fearful(the earthquake is a sign our god is angry, we must do X/we must kill X or god will kill/harm us); those who don't do X or believe in X would have been seen as dangerous (causing more fear and insecurity amongst believers).

 

All of that would have gone into shaping their culture, religions and their god.

 

Obviously, as people begin to understand more about their environment and others, their insecurities and fears change or diminish; and after a great deal of struggle/conflict(against those who fear change), old gods die out or are replaced with new ones – or dropped altogether. The religious holy books that encourage past fears and insecurities pretty much become useless, unbelievable baggage - and that's part of the reason why we have believers like Janie who, being part of that transition of change, discard a great deal of those old beliefs.

 

Ignorance, fear, insecurity gives rise to superstition, conspiracy theories, anti-vax movements, god beliefs, religion, you name it. And all of it pretty much revolves around peoples ignorance and the need to avoid being harmed, survive or avoid death.

 

A reasonable post and one that, all in all, I have no disagreement with.

 

It does lead me to ask you this, open, question though;

 

If we are all subject to fearing death what do you propose we can do to overcome that fear, or do you think it is merely part of the human condition to have that fear?

[Total Chaos 10]

I have been thinking long and hard and I still cannot find any solution to the God problem.

Now myself and religion have never mixed as I view all religions as little more than fairy tales expanded by people who on the whole make themselves very wealthy in the process.

No my problem is when I say wake up in a morning with the sun streaming in through the window and I lay there thinking what is life all about I then pinch my self just to make sure I am real .

That is when the what is all this about bit clicks in .

Now I have read all the Darwin theory about how we came out of the sea and grew tails then started standing up on two hind legs etc but it just does not make sense, I mean why only us why not cats or dogs or donkeys etc how is it only the human species that evolved this way.

And so then I go back to the God bit I mean is it possible that It all happened in a way that even today we still know nothing about is it possible that we are the off spring of some intergalactic visitors to Earth who after a quick fling on Earth decided that this World was not for them and shot off to pastures new forgetting about this Planet for ever.

Now we have computers, space ships ,radio waves, and technology beyond belief and we are no nearer even today actually discovering .

Where did we come from, Why are we here, What happens to us when we die, and who or what is God.

 

Try Lloyd pye's alternative theory,it is alot more believable than a supreme being sat on a cloud.His theory is based on the Anunnaki,giant beings.Using there DNA and DNA of primates, they sliced and diced to get human form,but a much more inferior being to themselves.The inferior being that we where made smaller and we only use 10% of our brain.The Annanuki bread us as slaves to mine there gold.Things in the bible such as Moses stood on a mountain and could see the roundness of the earth,not from a mountain you cant, you have to be further up in space.Man will walk amongst GIANTS.In ancient egypt,Sumerians and mayans hieroglyphics had the symbols of the sun and all the planets,how could they have known this?when we have only just discovered them.Humans have 4000 different defects in our bodies,primated have very few,so obviously some thing has been messing with us.We have 48 chromosomes,primates have 46 etc etc.

 

It really is an interesting theory,judge for yourself i will paste a short version, but if you wish to delve further google Lloyd pye's intervention theory.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lloyd+pye+youtube&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEEQtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqNGngZsxAhw&ei=ke24UJnVO4a10QWUu4DYDw&usg=AFQjCNEyC63qSjpRnvlH9_HpG98PSWFm9Q

[Ryedo40 10]

A reasonable post and one that, all in all, I have no disagreement with.

 

It does lead me to ask you this, open, question though;

 

If we are all subject to fearing death what do you propose we can do to overcome that fear, or do you think it is merely part of the human condition to have that fear?

 

Fear is a survival mechanism so the fear of death is always going to be with us to some extent. Naturally, most people simply can't deal with the idea of not being - or no longer existing. Because of that I think a lot of people try and avoid thinking about the issue - or delude themselves into believing ideas of an afterlife or heaven. I think that accepting you'll no longer exist one day, and not avoiding the issue, is a good way to overcome those fears.

 

 

Speaking for myself, and although I'd like a decent innings, the thought of non-existence doesn't scare me at all. It's the process or events leading up to my death that concerns me. But then I usually think that once it's over, it won't matter - so it's a waste of time and energy worrying about it.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Ryedo40

[jfish1936 10]

I would like to be assured of eternal life after death.

Being really nasty at a deep down level, I might enjoy watching certain people burning in eternal hellfire (some names available on request).

I would like to win a thousand million dollars/pounds/euros.

 

Sadly, the fact that I would like all these things doesn't mean that I'm going to get them!

 

Even more sadly, an old man (with a beard?) can tell a young man that he could have at least the first two, causing the young man to go out and murder Jews/Christians/Moslems or at least members of another sect of his own religion because he's "doing the will of 'GOD'"

[redwhine 10]

I would like to be assured of eternal life after death.

Have you thought that through? Eternity is not 'a very long time'. It's eeettteeerrrnnniiitttyyy.

 

Do you ever get fed up of doing anything? After doing everything 6 billion times, you'd still have eternity to do them all again.

 

...and if the Abrahamic religions are correct, that eternity will be spent kowtowing to god even though most of the people you ever loved are being tortured for all eeettteeerrrnniitttyyy, by that same god, for something someone else did thousands of years before they were even born.

[jfish1936 10]

Well, I guess as I am the result of a long chain of evolution rather than CREATION, I won't have to worry about the boring eternity.

After "I" die, the "I" will no longer exist; I shall survive in my friends' memories, maybe.

But there is no "ba" or "ka", no "lemur", no ghost, no immortal soul.

It's been 75 good years, I'll be sorry to go, but go I will have to.

Then "I" will just no longer "be"