six45ive   10 #625 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) ..................................... Edited April 22, 2012 by six45ive Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
six45ive   10 #626 Posted April 22, 2012 Look, you have said that the believers are hypocrites. They are not hypocrites because they believe, not you are me, but they, believe that God knows the future but has given us free will to choose what we want.  Therefore, if someone uses that free will to commit murder, it is not hypocritical of them to condemn that murder.  You are confusing your opinion of the issue with those who believe, they are not being hypocritical just because you don't agree with the belief they hold.  from the perspective of that belief, from the perspective of their scriptures, they are not being hypocritical. Wether you accept that view or I accept that view or anyone else who isn't theistic accepts that view is completely irrelevant.  You making the accusation that they are hypocrites is incorrect, because from their perspective, from the perspective of their books, they are not.  How many times do I need to say it before you understand it? You are imprinting your belief onto them, so your argument is wrong.  Your only argument against this is that their belief and their scriptures are irrelevant, which is a bizarre statement to make when you are calling them hypocritical, they can only be hypocritical if they are contradicting those scriptures and that belief, they are not.  You are taking photos with the lense cap on and are refusing to accept it.  I think you and Mr Smith are talking at cross purposes and probably have a different idea of what hypocrisy means. I would probably use the term cognitive dissonance if I was arguing from Mr Smith's position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
MrSmith   10 #627 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) No- I can see why you are dragging this so far. You simply cannot comprehend it. I can condemn the action of anyone if I feel it was wrong- whether that person is of any faith or no faith. It does not mean God made them do it- that is akin to saying that your child ends up being a serial killer or thug- do the victims blame you as the parent as it was you who created that child with your partner?  If God is all powerful and knows everything then he knew it would happen and had the power to prevent it, if God was the creator, God is responsible. If God chose to allow it to happen it must have been God will, by condemning it and praising God you are being hypocritical. Praising and loving God in the knowledge that God allows these bad thing to happen is hypocritical. I feel sure if someone you loved was killed and a police offer had the power to prevent it, but chose to stand by and watch instead, you would condemn both the murder and the police office.  I certainly would, and I defiantly wouldn’t congratulate the police offer for all is good work.  that your child ends up being a serial killer or thug- do the victims blame you as the parent as it was you who created that child with your partner?  I think If couple had a premonition and knew with absolute certainty that the child they are about to conceive with become a mass murderer, they would probably prevent its conception. Edited April 22, 2012 by MrSmith Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
quisquose   10 #628 Posted April 22, 2012 I certainly would, and I defiantly wouldn’t congratulate the police offer for all is good work.  I am sorry for the loss of your loved one MrSmith, but surely you must realise that their death was just a test and by standing by and doing nothing I was simply showing that I loved him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
MrSmith   10 #629 Posted April 22, 2012 I think you and Mr Smith are talking at cross purposes and probably have a different idea of what hypocrisy means. I would probably use the term cognitive dissonance if I was arguing from Mr Smith's position.  I would say that they have a belief that God is good, all knowing and can do anything, but by choosing to ignore the bad that God caused during the creation of everything, and only condemning the created, makes them hypocrites.  Would I be a hypocrite if I condemned the actions of someone whilst praising someone else for the same actions?  You made me look up the defintion and I think I'm using it correctly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
six45ive   10 #630 Posted April 22, 2012 I would say that they have a belief that God is good, all knowing and can do anything, but by choosing to ignore the bad that God caused during the creation of everything, and only condemning the created, makes them hypocrites.  Would I be a hypocrite if I condemned the actions of someone whilst praising someone else for the same actions?  You made me look up the defintion and I think I'm using it correctly.  I'm pretty much behind what you're saying but I tend to use the term hypocrisy where there's some clear dishonesty in what a person is saying and they don't actually believe it themselves and that their actions clearly contradict what they're saying. I think Palirichard's argument is that a lot of religious people do actually honestly believe in what they're espousing even though, to the rest of us, it's impossible to hold two contradictory positions. I admit, it does make them look hypocritical on the face of it but for me there has to be some clear dishonesty there and a willingness and foresight to deceive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
MrSmith   10 #631 Posted April 22, 2012 I'm pretty much behind what you're saying but I tend to use the term hypocrisy where there's some clear dishonesty in what a person is saying and they don't actually believe it themselves and that their actions clearly contradict what they're saying. I think Palirichard's argument is that a lot of religious people do actually honestly believe in what they're espousing even though, to the rest of us, it's impossible to hold two contradictory positions. I admit, it does make them look hypocritical on the face of it but for me there has to be some clear dishonesty there and a willingness and foresight to deceive.  I see what you are saying, would it be like for instance, the Catholic Church condemning the actions of a child molester, but covering up said actions within their church.  And if so, would that also apply to the parishioners that still attend the church despite knowing that the church as covered up something they deem to be wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
six45ive   10 #632 Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) I see what you are saying, would it be like for instance, the Catholic Church condemning the actions of a child molester, but covering up said actions within their church.  That's a pretty good example of hypocrisy as far as I'm concerned.  And if so, would that also apply to the parishioners that still attend the church despite knowing that the church has covered up something they deem to be wrong.  It depends because it's only some of the clergy in the catholic church that have covered it up. If the parishioners are going to a church where the priest is knowingly committing child abuse or they know that the priest has been involved in covering it up for another member of the clergy and yet they continue to preach abstinece, anti gay rhetoric and anti contraception then absolutely they are hypocrites but if they carry on going because they like meeting friends there and enjoy the music and the sermon from a priest whom they have no evidence has done anything wrong then no. Basically the parishioners follow the teachings of the denomination of the church they're affiliated to and not to the people who are employed by the church. For example, if you support a football club and the entire team and management from top to bottom are Ched Evans wannabes are you a hypocrite to keep supporting that club? I would say no but you would be a hypocrite if you supported the employees who've been convicted of rape if, and only if, you've been outspoken against rape yourself. If not, if you don't think there is any such thing as rape then no you wouldn't be a hypocrite in that context, you'd just be a p***k! Edited April 22, 2012 by six45ive Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
MrSmith   10 #633 Posted April 22, 2012 That's a pretty good example of hypocrisy as far as I'm concerned.   It depends because it's only some of the clergy in the catholic church that have covered it up. If the parishoners are going to a church where the priest is knowingly committing child abuse or they know that the priest has been involved in covering it up for another member of the clergy and yet they continue to preach abstinece, anti gay rhetoric and anti contraception then absolutely they are hypocrites but if they carry on going because they like meeting friends there and enjoy the music and the sermon from a priest whom they have no evidence has done anything wrong then no. Basically the parishoners follow the teachings of the denomination of the church they're affiliated to and not to the people who are employed by the church. For example, if you support a football club and the entire team and management from top to bottom are Ched Evans wannabes are you a hypocrite to keep supporting that club? I would say no but you would be a hypocrite if you supported the employees who've been convicted of rape if, and only if, you've been outspoken against rape yourself. If not, if you don't think there is any such thing as rape then no you wouldn't be a hypocrite in that context, you'd just be a p***k! I was under the impression the cover up went all the way back to the Vatican. A Vatican department advised Ireland's Catholic bishops in 1997 not to report priests suspected of child abuse to the police, a newly revealed letter shows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
carosio   178 #634 Posted April 22, 2012 If we take it (for argument's sake) that God did give humans free will, can anyone estimate the point at which, in the span of human evolution (and their predecessors), we received it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
MrSmith   10 #635 Posted April 22, 2012 If we take it (for argument's sake) that God did give humans free will, can anyone estimate the point at which, in the span of human evolution (and their predecessors), we received it?  Free will is defined as follows,  The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.  Fate The development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.  If God knows our fate before we act then we don't have free will. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
six45ive   10 #636 Posted April 22, 2012 I was under the impression the cover up went all the way back to the Vatican.  Absolutely but it's the message and the doctrines that are important not the people running the show. If you sincerely believe in the trinity and the cracker and wine becoming the body of christ and the other doctrines then you're not a hypocrite to keep going to that church as long as that's what they keep teaching and as long as there are clergy that are preaching the anti sex rhetoric and aren't involved in child abuse or have been active in covering it up. On top of that I don't think hypocrisy is a purely black and white issue. I think there are varying degrees of it which is why I have a lot of sympathy with your take on the subject. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...