Meditation MEGATHREAD

[PaliRichard 10]

I'm going to split this down, because I understand half your posts and the other seems alien to me.

 

Can relate to your being at loss of this off switch. That significant breakthrough only happened last year to me and I remember what it was like before. Now I know how I fooled myself into thinking I was the controlling external energy. The "off" comes from witnessing the external, knowing that I am the watching energy, not in charge of the carnival out there but awake while watching it al go on.

Easier said than done. I remember how this was impossible for me to understand.

The truth is so utterly simple, we have forgotten how to connect to simplicity, our minds have taken control and we will not find the "off switch (meditation)" unless we have a deep intense willing to even die for it.

I was so busy looking for the off switch, looked everywhere for it. When I stopped looking it came, here I am you silly, but when I was looking my energy was all over the place thinking I had to achieve it.[/Quote]

 

Forgive me for saying, but your posts seem to be implying that I am trying too hard and this is why I don't understand your experience.

 

I have to say that by saying this (I stress, if this is what you are saying, I'm not entirely sure it is) The only thing you are showing is that you misunderstand Buddhist meditation, which isn't a method of trying in any way at all, it is a method of awareness, of constant, gradually deepening awareness. The idea that there is something to acheive is a tool, which the Buddha stresses time and time again. He likens it to the motivation of travelling to a destination, once you are there the motivation, quite naturally, dissipates of its own accord.

 

This is stressed by your saying you were looking for the off switch, in Buddhism everything is directed towards the total unbinding of the self, there is no off switch to look for, it is an understanding of our implicit nature, not a trying to switch that nature off - which I am still struggling to understand, not because I am trying too hard, but because the concept of being able to experience the, to be honest I don't even know how to put it into words - lets say to experience the experience? without any kind of experiencer seems philosophically (sorry but thats the best way I can get across what I mean) flawed, and yet when it comes to you trying to put this into any kind understandabe frame of reference you change to the position to that of there is an experiencer.

 

I am quite willing to accept that we are talking about the same thing but using different language, that which is familiar to each of us as individuals but alien to the other.

 

It could also be that we are looking at different 'goals' but using similar methods, the Buddha advised against being stuck in the state that I think you and others are describing because it was a hinderance to the path, that doesn't mean the Buddhist path is 'better' or 'higher' or more 'profound' than any other but merely it has a different outcome. If I may offer a slight analogy it could be that you are using a car to win a ralley and I am using one to get to my Uncle Tom's, fundamentally the methods are pretty much the same but because our goals are different we require slight individual tweaking to the vehicle to get to our respective goals.

 

I have stressed the difficulty of using these forums to discuss such 'deep' subject matter several times on this thread, and it seems to become more confounded the more we try to penetrate it, i am enjoying the delving though, and I hope it is a mutual enjoyment.

 

An enlightened master could help create the right atmosphere, direction, but we have to stand on our own legs.

 

...........and this statement I agree with entirely, I am not against the idea that one can 'chance' upon the goal of meditation (whatever that goal may be), but as I have said before it is easier with guidance, but as with my earlier demonstrations using learning to drive and musicians it is ultimately the individual that is doing the work, not the teacher, this is a core Buddhist concept that differs from say, Christianity, there is no 'grace' in Buddhism, the Buddha doesn't make an individual enlightened, the individual does, the Buddha just helps them along by guiding them along a path he himself travelled.

[dutch 68]

I only read richards post and am not qualified to make any comments regarding his existence.

Even my own experiences cannot really be expressed in this forum, if it were that easy I could sell it on the internet and people could buy meditation on ebay.

Language, verbal mental energy is only a desperate efford to encourage others to go look for meditation.

 

What is the witnessing energy that watches the experiencer you mention?

 

Meditation is like peeling an onion. Layer after layer it goes deeper and deeper.

Away from from the outer layers to the very core of that witnissing energy that is at the very center of it all.

 

Everybody can go there as long as they really go for it and stop investing in nonsense religions, politics, exercises.

 

Someone with real experience could make it easier to go the right direction and not waste time all over the place. Their energy is very strong and inviting, it pulls you the right way without trying. No need to talk.

[rosemary19 10]

Sounds like a high to me.

 

A trip without the payment.

Edited March 4, 2012 by rosemary19

[dutch 68]

Why do people become interested in meditation?

 

You are born empty minded, no language no name, nothing there to identify with. That is why children are so much fun.

As we grow up we are told how to react, we are told whom we are but what we are told is just outer information we all lose when we die. Now we start to think we are someone and forget we came with nothing.

Everything we do now is just follow the rules and react to what has been pumped in our minds along the road.

 

Internet did just the same. For example, internet started clean, just a communication network between universities. Then normal people started to connect to it. They started to play with it and greedy business smelled the opportunity. Then it got dirtier and dirtier with advertising, rubbish. Governments interfere now all freedom is going and going from Internet. People go to jail, it has changed from something innocent to a controlled mind machine.

 

Few people become aware, their awareness is only touching these outer layers. Few people can be bothered to really look into it.

Once stuck in the outer layers of mind a deep understanding of inner awareness is needed to see that we came with nothing and are here now with what is here now. Then all that rubbish that is in the mind is recognised as such and we no longer identify with it.

 

Why is it so difficult to understand or see this? We have completely forgotten what it was like without the controlling mind. Difficult to remember because now our minds resist any development to move back to a world where we are free to see mind is just a tool, you are much deeper and stronger than mind.

 

Meditation is the reverse process. It moves back to the empty mind (you can still think, talk and do things, you no longer identify with it)

When the false identity has gone, freedom, peace and all you ever need.

 

This society does not connect with meditation. It is greatly discouraged and there are many many traps to stop you from really finding it. Many sideroads to get lost and disappear.

It takes a certain awareness to unlock the closed eyes that falsely believe they are what they think.

 

Anyone really wanting to go back to the ultimate centre of inner freedom from all crap will become interested in meditation.

Edited March 4, 2012 by dutch

[PaliRichard 10]

I only read richards post and am not qualified to make any comments regarding his existence.

Even my own experiences cannot really be expressed in this forum, if it were that easy I could sell it on the internet and people could buy meditation on ebay.

Language, verbal mental energy is only a desperate efford to encourage others to go look for meditation.

 

What is the witnessing energy that watches the experiencer you mention?

 

Meditation is like peeling an onion. Layer after layer it goes deeper and deeper.

Away from from the outer layers to the very core of that witnissing energy that is at the very center of it all.

 

Everybody can go there as long as they really go for it and stop investing in nonsense religions, politics, exercises.

 

Someone with real experience could make it easier to go the right direction and not waste time all over the place. Their energy is very strong and inviting, it pulls you the right way without trying. No need to talk.

 

dutch

 

Your meditation sounds like Hindu meditation, you say it is not religious but the way you put it forward is very Hindu in tone, and the lack of experiencer you mentioned can be understood if you look at it in the Hindu context, but if you don't, if you insist it is without philosophy/religion then you become quite stuck.

 

Meditation is beyond words, it can only be experienced by the person doing it, but we can convey partially, almost like using a map to look around a city, the philosophy behind it.

 

I do not understand the philosophy you put forward, you shift from no experiencer to experiencer without seeming to see any difficulty with this.

 

My honest feeling is that you have taken on the ideas and understood intellectually the experience of others, either through reading books or talking to people, but do not have the experience of meditation yourself, and this is why you cannot put even a simple philosophical angle on it without getting yourself tied up.

 

Of course, only you know whether this the case or not, and I am still more than open to the angle that we are talking about either different methods or different ends as I detailed above.

 

It is my opinion that the quality of the meditation comes from practice, and this validates or negates (and should surpass) the philosophy behind the practice. My own practice and that of those who have practiced the same kind of meditation as me validates that philosophy.

 

I have no understanding of the philosophy you have put forward, I have never met anyone in person who claims the experience you claim is present in meditation, although I would love to, but I have met plenty of peole who understand on an intellectual level the ideas behind meditation, and when you do meditate the distinction between intellectual understanding and medititive experience is a chasm of difference.

 

I am, as always, putting forward my honest opinion with no ulterior motive.

 

You may say I have no real meditation experience because I haven't written a book like the power of now, yet you have also said that those with real experience keep it to themselves.

 

Those with real experience are like everyone else, just with a deeper understanding, some will write books, some will not, some will be secrative and guarded, some will be open and sharing, and this also contradicts to me the idea of this fluffy little utopian 'equality' that is present in the meditation you put forward, if there is only an external 'force' that witnesses the meditation, why are these personality traites still present in the people who have acheived this heigtened state?

 

As always I want to stress, again, and again, and again, that I am not trying to be rude, I want to go into this, I want to explore it, even within the constraints of language we have in this medium, you seem to be stressing this 'superior' form of experience, I want to explore the intricisies, I want to look at methods/motivaton etc in relation to the results, but we can't do that when you continue to insist that it is just my having not 'broken through' that is limiting me.

 

Then what is the method to breaking through, you said once you stopped trying then you broke through the barrier, so whjat was the 'trying' you were doing, I don't understand, in Buddhist meditation there is no 'trying', there is simply practice.

 

Are you saying that you have to stop 'practicing' to break through, or are you saying you don't need to 'practice' at all, if you don't practice how can you stop?

 

You mentioned children, I assume you mean children pre self identity, that is not dissimilar to the case studies I mentioned earlier of people with no self identification because of brain damage, but there is no experiencer at all in these examples, their is just action with no self, so this does not equate with the experience you claim is part of meditation, as you say their is some kind of experience.

 

I am doing my best to use a limited medium to put forth personal experience, please try and work with me to acheive a multual understanding, because all I seem to be getting from you is contradiction and an aloof 'you can't possibly understand' attitude.

 

[dutch 68]

dutch

I am doing my best to use a limited medium to put forth personal experience, please try and work with me to acheive a multual understanding, because all I seem to be getting from you is contradiction and an aloof 'you can't possibly understand' attitude.

 

 

I said meditation is so easy, we have forgotten how to "switch off" and let silence come back.

The experience is there for everybody, you too richard, you are doing everything you can to "switch of". Authentically searching for what the buddha's talked about. Most people don't have the courage to do what you are doing now to experience meditation and you are working hard on it, authentically. Now on this forum you find support and other people also interested in meditation.

I cannot give it to you, you cannot give it to me. We can attempt to share our experiences. I have struggled for years. Now I have reached nowhere after my first little taste of real meditative awareness.

People must wonder how can this be of any use or interest? The mind slows down, gaps of silence grow. It takes awareness back to where it originally came from and that is a wonderfull experience!

[johncocker 10]

You could say, un-thinking awareness, that which is conscious of our thoughts.

 

Though, 'us', 'I' etc, are also just intellectual constructs, as are all words. To quieten thinking mind and experience your bieng as awareness. I dont think many people do that, they're forever reacting to their thoughts.

 

you cannot stop the process of thought

in meditation you can slow it down or calm it down and start to get a bit more control of conscious mind but you can't stop the process of thought ....its a natural process like breathing you cannot stop breathing you have no control over it,

.try it sometime even if you held your breath long enough to lose consciousness

you'd still come around again in a few minutes .

 

when you say they are reacting to their thoughts

who or what is they and who or what istheir in their mental anatomy

Edited March 4, 2012 by johncocker

[PaliRichard 10]

I said meditation is so easy, we have forgotten how to "switch off" and let silence come back.

The experience is there for everybody, you too richard, you are doing everything you can to "switch of". Authentically searching for what the buddha's talked about. Most people don't have the courage to do what you are doing now to experience meditation and you are working hard on it, authentically. Now on this forum you find support and other people also interested in meditation.

I cannot give it to you, you cannot give it to me. We can attempt to share our experiences. I have struggled for years. Now I have reached nowhere after my first little taste of real meditative awareness.

People must wonder how can this be of any use or interest? The mind slows down, gaps of silence grow. It takes awareness back to where it originally came from and that is a wonderfull experience!

 

I'm not doing anything to switch off, the Buddha didn't teach about 'switching off', in fact if anything it was quite the opposite, his teaching was given to help us become awake, I think you should probably learn more about Buddhism if you think it is a teaching that shows us how to switch off, that is completely inaccurate.

 

You keep on throwing in phrases like 'It takes awareness back to where it originally came from', but where does it come from? I keep asking you reasonable things that will help me understand your position yet you just throw more and more vague phrases at me.

 

Your behaviour is similar to those who are interested in Zen and throw koans into conversations thinking that it makes them look like they have some deep knowledge, but they don't understand, anyone who really understands can use normal everyday language to point to the experience meditation gives.

 

I have asked you a series of questions that you really should be able to answer without any difficulty if your experience is authentic, I wish you would answer them, please refer to post 150 for some of the questions, and please stop throwing soundbite phrases at me, I am far too familiar with bogus meditation books and self help gurus to be won over by meaningless tag lines.

[dutch 68]

If you have questions about meditation only way to find the answer is to meditate.

 

My experience is limited. It only moves slowly from mind to meditation. Only thing I am certain of is that mind is slowing down and silence grows and moving in the right direction. Away from mind, body, towards the witnissing energy present.

You are right it is important to watch out for self help gurus, my father is one and I told him to get lost. I don't follow him or connect to his selfish advises.

 

If you feel lost and have real questions E. Tolle or Osho are good places to start.

[PaliRichard 10]

If you have questions about meditation only way to find the answer is to meditate.

 

My experience is limited. It only moves slowly from mind to meditation. Only thing I am certain of is that mind is slowing down and silence grows and moving in the right direction. Away from mind, body, towards the witnissing energy present.

You are right it is important to watch out for self help gurus, my father is one and I told him to get lost. I don't follow him or connect to his selfish advises.

 

If you feel lost and have real questions E. Tolle or Osho are good places to start.

 

I do not feel lost, I think you know full well by now that this is the case. I feel deeply saddened that you will not investigate this with me and continue to avoid these issues with these aversion tactics.

 

I wish you well though and I am glad that the meditation you practice is right for you.

[pattricia 578]

Im so glad I started this interesting thread, and yes, I am practising meditation. Im on my second week.

[Phanerothyme 12]

Is there a name for "staring meditation" where you dwell upon and thus swell an object until it completely consumes your visual field, by which time you realise awareness has literally shifted into a different space? Your visual field becomes simply a flat screen upon which reality is projected, and you are in a space outside of it.

 

Sets my heart racing when I come out of it. Difficult to say what I'm thinking when I'm in the state because the I/ego/self/narrator is gone/silent/asleep, but it's always followed by a short, deep, euphoria.

 

One strong impression it always leaves me with is how crazy the notion that we reside "behind the eyes" is. It is a misleading feeling, but you can see where it comes from in everyday life.