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The problem is translating those into benefits to the user

 

Community - Not really sure what you mean here - there is a much larger Windows 'community' should you need it - I guess what you really mean is forums where you can get help or discuss software and exchange tips - there are plenty of those for Windows too you know!

 

Cost - For most people not a concern - Windows comes installed with their PC - the cost is invisible to them. Other than Windows every single other piece of software on my laptop is freeware. Chrome, MS Essentials, Libre Office, iTunes, FeedDemon, Firefox, Picasa, Paint Net, uTorrent, VLC, Skype to name just a few - not one of them costs a penny. They may not be open source, but they still cost nothing.

 

Versatility - not sure what you mean - I can't think of why installing Linux on my home PC would make it more 'versatile' than it is with Windows 7? What are you thinking of doing with it??

 

Safety - Its true that the threat of malware is far far smaller on Linux than Windows - however it takes a matter of minutes to download and install decent free security software - much quicker than installing a whole operating system. MS Security Essentials is my preferred one for its straight forward interface. (I haven't had a single issue with malware in the past 10 years - I could easily have run no AV software at all as many people do)

 

Freedom - A bit abstract really - freedom from what? to do what?

 

I'm not anti Linux, or even pro MS - over the years I've had Macs, Windows and Linux setups. When I got this laptop it had Windows 7 on it, and so far I have had no reason to change it - if I did it would be for a genuine practical reason, not some abstract notion of 'freedom' or because of a bogus idea that it would cost me less.

 

This is not trolling, or flame-baiting - I just think that if you want to convince people that there is a good reason to switch to Linux, you need more than a few abstract concepts.

 

What anywebsite said.

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easy, its closer to windows and so eases us windows users in gently, or supposedly does

 

Have you installed it yet.

 

Making it look like Windows doesn't make it any more similar though. Once you click on things, the difference is apparent. I can't understand why people think making it look like Windows will help, it just prolongs the move. If you bought an Audi, would you make it look like a BMW until you have got used to it?

 

It's like nicotine patches. You're just prolonging the switch.

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Have you installed it yet.

 

Making it look like Windows doesn't make it any more similar though. Once you click on things, the difference is apparent. I can't understand why people think making it look like Windows will help, it just prolongs the move. If you bought an Audi, would you make it look like a BMW until you have got used to it?

 

It's like nicotine patches. You're just prolonging the switch.

like i said yesterday, ive been trying to use linux for years without success, im quite handy on windows, if i cant then im pretty sure the rest of the general windows using population cant.

nobodys gonna jump from using windows to typing gibberish into a terminal thats a cert, they wont even look at it,

 

it being "more" like windows may ease some in, even if its not that similer in reality

 

and no i havent installed it lol, i need to sort both puters out tbh really, got mi dads now and wanna migrate to that one ideally

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like i said yesterday, ive been trying to use linux for years without success, im quite handy on windows, if i cant then im pretty sure the rest of the general windows using population cant.

nobodys gonna jump from using windows to typing gibberish into a terminal thats a cert, they wont even look at it,

 

it being "more" like windows may ease some in, even if its not that similer in reality

 

You keep saying gibberish into a terminal. Earlier in the thread you stated you started on DOS. Terminal is DOS on Steroids. This is the thing that Linux users love though. You see all those windows, icons, buttons and APPs. They are all essentially a list of commands hidden behind a graphical user interface (GUI). The terminal allows you to remove that GUI and tinker under the hood.

 

The way you keep describing it as gibberish only leads me to believe you weren't paying attention, are a bit dumb, using it as a reason to be obtuse or all of the above.

 

That's why, as I stated earlier in the thread, you really should stick to Windows. It's made for users like yourself who just like to click on things. I do Linux is made for you too but you will just keep on rabbiting the same stuff about the terminal, gibberish, it not downloading, so on and so forth. All of which are not the fault of Linux.

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You keep saying gibberish into a terminal. Earlier in the thread you stated you started on DOS. Terminal is DOS on Steroids. This is the thing that Linux users love though. You see all those windows, icons, buttons and APPs. They are all essentially a list of commands hidden behind a graphical user interface (GUI). The terminal allows you to remove that GUI and tinker under the hood.

 

The way you keep describing it as gibberish only leads me to believe you weren't paying attention, are a bit dumb, using it as a reason to be obtuse or all of the above.

 

That's why, as I stated earlier in the thread, you really should stick to Windows. It's made for users like yourself who just like to click on things. I do Linux is made for you too but you will just keep on rabbiting the same stuff about the terminal, gibberish, it not downloading, so on and so forth. All of which are not the fault of Linux.

 

come on man smile, you know i talk honestly, to the point with a little hint of tongue in cheek, gibberish is my way of putting it, it IS gibberish to me, its the same as having to type german or swaheli.

Most windows users these days prolly have never used dos either, i came into pcs during windows 95, i only ever faffed around in dos with windows start up discs when formatting / reinstalling.

I suppose windows HAS dumbed people down, people just arent built to use terminals like they used to anymore and thats what i suppose i was trying to say with my "generalisation" yesterday, Linux users / developers CAN use it so i just think sometimes theres either a lack of understanding or empathy towards windows users (you seem to be throwing sideswipes at windows users being dumb or stupid by the way too, generalising :P ) where in fact some might change to linux with a little bit of help, change, empathy. I myself always pop up now and again in linux threads and keep fiddling with live distributions cos id love to leave windows and start with linux but i admit its just far too complicated for me.

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come on man smile, you know i talk honestly, to the point with a little hint of tongue in cheek, gibberish is my way of putting it, it IS gibberish to me, its the same as having to type german or swaheli.

Most windows users these days prolly have never used dos either, i came into pcs during windows 95, i only ever faffed around in dos with windows start up discs when formatting / reinstalling.

I suppose windows HAS dumbed people down, people just arent built to use terminals like they used to anymore and thats what i suppose i was trying to say with my "generalisation" yesterday, Linux users / developers CAN use it so i just think sometimes theres either a lack of understanding or empathy towards windows users (you seem to be throwing sideswipes at windows users being dumb or stupid by the way too, generalising :P ) where in fact some might change to linux with a little bit of help, change, empathy. I myself always pop up now and again in linux threads and keep fiddling with live distributions cos id love to leave windows and start with linux but i admit its just far too complicated for me.

 

 

Windows is designed to be user friendly, let's face it 80 year old's who don't even know what a PC is know how to use Windows.

 

For years linux has had various desktops which operate just the same as Windows (on the surface), basically, anybody can use linux in just the same way they use Windows. But if they are curious or want to change something, they can...

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Aye, it's the snooty "go back to windows you're just too thick to comprehend attitude" of some.. that will ensure linux remains in the also-ran stakes.. It's kinda like the "go back to warcraft wow-kiddie" that you see on gaming forums often splurged at people who have some criticism of a new game...

 

I'm pretty adept with any Windows based enterprise, I've also had experience with SCO Unix and some tinkering with various Linux distros. It's safe to say my experience in using this kind of thing is someway above 'average'.. and in a similar vein to what melthebell said if I find that using linux often is tedious/difficult then Mr average Joe Bloggs is going to have neigh on no chance of using it sucessfully..

 

Most users do just want to 'click' on things and they work... which as spooky3 pointed out is in some degree possible with Linux, but once you want to do anything beyond starting up an already installed program it often gets complicated... and don't give me the one click install cobblers, not everything you may need/want is available via those tools.

 

Most people just dont want to have to be typing

#sumo cobblers apt-difficult --wtf --eh

#sh --*t --gtfo -gibberish.deb /x /y/z-abc/-n

 

to download and install their favourite whatever... :hihi:

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Aye, it's the snooty "go back to windows you're just too thick to comprehend attitude" of some.. that will ensure linux remains in the also-ran stakes.. It's kinda like the "go back to warcraft wow-kiddie" that you see on gaming forums often splurged at people who have some criticism of a new game...

 

I'm pretty adept with any Windows based enterprise, I've also had experience with SCO Unix and some tinkering with various Linux distros. It's safe to say my experience in using this kind of thing is someway above 'average'.. and in a similar vein to what melthebell said if I find that using linux often is tedious/difficult then Mr average Joe Bloggs is going to have neigh on no chance of using it sucessfully..

 

Most users do just want to 'click' on things and they work... which as spooky3 pointed out is in some degree possible with Linux, but once you want to do anything beyond starting up an already installed program it often gets complicated... and don't give me the one click install cobblers, not everything you may need/want is available via those tools.

 

Most people just dont want to have to be typing

#sumo cobblers apt-difficult --wtf --eh

#sh --*t --gtfo -gibberish.deb /x /y/z-abc/-n

 

to download and install their favourite whatever... :hihi:

careful with the gibberish / generalisations, it seems to offend people a tad lol

 

 

Most users do just want to 'click' on things and they work... which as spooky3 pointed out is in some degree possible with Linux, but once you want to do anything beyond starting up an already installed program it often gets complicated... and don't give me the one click install cobblers, not everything you may need/want is available via those tools.

yeah i found trying ti install something and to install 1 thing id have to install 10 things because of dependencies........if i remember, im going back a few years now when i last tried

Edited by melthebell

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This laptop I'm using has Zorin on it. I use it on the internet, watch videos files, convert video files to other formats & use it to convert/split/join audio files, put music on my iphone & take photos off it. Copy music to my mp3 player, play games, control my server PC via VNC, copy files to/from my media server, & books to my Kindle. What I've never done is use Terminal to do any of it.

 

My other laptop which is upstairs gets used to do the same things, but using PCLinuxOS. Again, never needed to use Terminal on it.

 

This laptop also has Windows 7 on it. The only time I used it, to update my iphone software, it decided it needed to reboot in the middle of installing the phone software. I was glad I'd put the photos on the Linux partition because after doing a recovery on the phone, all the music and photos were gone, & it wouldn't reinstall anything from the backup on the Windows partition.

 

Incidentally, someone at work kept getting viruses on their PC despite having anti-virus software (I think due to his son also using the PC). Since putting PCLinux on it they still use it (mostly on the internet), but with no problems. He's not really computer literate, but they've had no problems switching to Linux from Windows.

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This laptop I'm using has Zorin on it. I use it on the internet, watch videos files, convert video files to other formats & use it to convert/split/join audio files, put music on my iphone & take photos off it. Copy music to my mp3 player, play games, control my server PC via VNC, copy files to/from my media server, & books to my Kindle. What I've never done is use Terminal to do any of it.

 

Lucky you... me on the other hand, upto my neck in terminal trying to get various different flavours of linux to recognise a motherboard RAID0. Still haven't managed it.. you'd think it was bleeding edge unrecognised technology I was trying to use. :rant:

 

He's not really computer literate, but they've had no problems switching to Linux from Windows.

 

Let me just get this Lexmark Printer/Scanner I have here; connected.. see how they get on with that! :hihi:

 

If he was getting hammered with viruses, with avs software installed it's more likely it was out of date, or that the son was subverting the software by either disabling it or giving things permission to do stuff. Using Linux, it's just as possible if you give things permission for nasties to creep on board.. they might not be as overtly destructive.. but they might be merrily feeding somebody with any amount of information and they just go unoticed, because there's nothing telling the user otherwise.

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This laptop I'm using has Zorin on it. I use it on the internet, watch videos files, convert video files to other formats & use it to convert/split/join audio files, put music on my iphone & take photos off it. Copy music to my mp3 player, play games, control my server PC via VNC, copy files to/from my media server, & books to my Kindle. What I've never done is use Terminal to do any of it.

 

My other laptop which is upstairs gets used to do the same things, but using PCLinuxOS. Again, never needed to use Terminal on it.

 

This laptop also has Windows 7 on it. The only time I used it, to update my iphone software, it decided it needed to reboot in the middle of installing the phone software. I was glad I'd put the photos on the Linux partition because after doing a recovery on the phone, all the music and photos were gone, & it wouldn't reinstall anything from the backup on the Windows partition.

 

Incidentally, someone at work kept getting viruses on their PC despite having anti-virus software (I think due to his son also using the PC). Since putting PCLinux on it they still use it (mostly on the internet), but with no problems. He's not really computer literate, but they've had no problems switching to Linux from Windows.

 

thats lucky lol, somebody whos not very literate getting on ok with linux, yet somebody whos quite a bit computer (windows) literate and has been trying for around 10 years, cant do the simplest things...hmmm

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The Windows community didn't write the software & don't have the source code, so even the 'experts' hardly know anything about it.

 

 

 

If cost isn't a concern then I wish I was you. You pay for Windows if you buy a PC with Windows installed, you're just fooling yourself. You pay for closed source software with the risk of not knowing what it's really doing or being able to change it.

 

 

 

It's a lot easier to do a lot of things on Linux, software development in particular. Lots of software only runs on Linux or runs best on Linux. Plus you can change it however you like, there are choices of GUIs, you can even choose not to have a GUI if you want.

 

 

 

Your security software is backwards, it can only detect threats that are known to the company that wrote it & then only some time after they become aware of the threat. It's useless against any new threat. It's much better to run an operating system that doesn't need babysitting.

 

 

 

Freedom for you to do whatever the hell you want with it without having to ask Steve Jobs or Bill Gates' permission first.

 

Don't like the way part of Windows works (or doesn't work)? Tough you have to live with it. Same problem on Linux? Maybe somebody else had the same problem & fixed it, if not then you can fix it if you want (or pay somebody to) because you have the source code. You can modify it & make your own version.

 

I appreciate the reply - but I still see nothing in there to make someone switch.

 

I'm not a developer, I don't care about some abstract notion of 'community' or 'freedom'. I've never once been compelled to attempt to change something on Windows or OSX that would require me to re write part of the system. When I wanted to change the appearance I found tools to achieve it on Windows (Windows blinds) and OSX (Uno).

The signature based security model is a straw man - modern security software uses signatures, heuristics and sandboxing, so its not useless against new threats at all. Even so, I have never personally had a single issue with malware in the last 10 years (you actually have to be pretty stupid to get infected these days - installing from unknown sources, using cracks and keygens, downloading bogus codecs, not blocking ad content etc). There might be a lot of stupid users out there, but I'm not one of them.

The cost issue is a red herring - its part of the initial cost of the machine. Removing it after the fact doesn't get anyone a refund. Besides, I bought mine well below cost as an end of line offer. It was a bargain with or without Windows.

 

I'm not anti Linux (you seem to have missed this point). I've run Ubuntu and Mint on an old Dell Laptop for a year or so, I had a netbook with Linpus lite on it (awful)which I removed and installed Cookie Linux.

However, when my new laptop arrived, I even tried Ubuntu on there. It worked ok, easy install, but with a few issues. Performance was sluggish compared to W7, the fan ran fast all the time with no way to control it, and my HDMI output didn't work So I rolled back to W7. I tried again about a year later - all of the same issues present.

 

So for me, and probably a lot of users, switching from a 100% functioning machine, to one thats only 90% functioning doesn't make sense if all I am getting in return is some fuzzy and undefined 'freedom' that offers me no practical benefits.

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