Delighted to see University applications down 9%..

[Conrod 10]

The whole point of going to Uni is not to work at places like poundland isn't it. Leave that to people who don't bother getting any formal qualifications.

 

So in that respect I don't think it's unreasonable to think you are 'too good' to work at poundland.

 

Paying £50k+ for an education you should at least expect to be getting something professional at a junior level.

 

I feel for a lot of recent grads, the UK has let them down big time.

I think the point is that there aren’t enough professional jobs for all the graduates many of the job opportunities are in lower paid jobs that don’t require a degree.

That is indeed the point.

 

Time for me to do the soap box 'have a go at the lefties' again, but it's apt here.

 

A generation or two ago, the only people who went away to study for a degree were those who were either academically gifted, or choosing a vocational degree as part of a subject-specific career path. Industry/academia's requirements were roughly balanced by the outputs of the universities, and we were all happy.

 

Then, along came the socialist anti-elitism concept of 'higher education for all', and we end up with many times more graduates being trained, many in frivolous subjects, but with not many more opportunities for graduate level employment and, even worse, with a lower standard of UK degree as the entire standard had to be lowered in order to make it accessible to more people.

 

The government got it badly wrong when they decided to make higher education a ‘right’. It should have remained a privileged based on academic ability – don’t forget that when fewer people went to university/polytechnic, the government could afford to give them free grants to study.

[MrSmith 10]

That is indeed the point.

 

Time for me to do the soap box 'have a go at the lefties' again, but it's apt here.

 

A generation or two ago, the only people who went away to study for a degree were those who were either academically gifted, or choosing a vocational degree as part of a subject-specific career path. Industry/academia's requirements were roughly balanced by the outputs of the universities, and we were all happy.

 

Then, along came the socialist anti-elitism concept of 'higher education for all', and we end up with many times more graduates being trained, many in frivolous subjects, but with not many more opportunities for graduate level employment and, even worse, with a lower standard of UK degree as the entire standard had to be lowered in order to make it accessible to more people.

 

The government got it badly wrong when they decided to make higher education a ‘right’. It should have remained a privileged based on academic ability – don’t forget that when fewer people went to university/polytechnic, the government could afford to give them free grants to study.

 

My jobs involves working with young people many of whom have done a degree, from the conversation I have with them their primary reason for going to uni is the life style and independence they get from living away from home, this is something the tax payer shouldn’t be funding.

[Murphy Jnr 10]

I love the way you class EVERY student the same .. Yawwnnnnnn

 

No, but you have to admire his optimism at the thought of a keen open minded 18 year old.

[Cyclone 10]

My jobs involves working with young people many of whom have done a degree, from the conversation I have with them their primary reason for going to uni is the life style and independence they get from living away from home, this is something the tax payer shouldn’t be funding.

 

That certainly is important to most students, talking about a career and jobs isn't (to them) very interesting, even if it is one of the primary reasons they're being educated...

Ask a student why they're doing A-levels or GCSEs and the answer isn't likely to be to do with future employment, does that mean that the state shouldn't pay for those levels of education?

[alchresearch 214]

I haven't got a degree, but aren't they hard ?

 

I wouldn't say they were "hard", but it does require a bit of effort and commitment.

 

University isn't like school, there are certain standards that must be shown when it comes to research and report & dissertation writing, and a lot of it is self-management.

 

If I was interviewing a graduate then I'd know he'd have knowledge in his particular subject, but also the skills above.

[TJC1 10]

Do you think then, we have too many graduates ? You also seem to suggest that people who do shop work didn't do a degree because they were lazy earlier in life. I haven't got a degree, but aren't they hard ? If it just takes "hard work" surely shop workers should be able to get a degree because they often work hard. I thought you had to have intelligence, far higher than average intelligence so degrees sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

I've been thinking about my current career and concluded that I'm not sure I want to go to a university that would have me as a student. Have I got this all wrong ?

 

I didn't say 'lazy' and I'm not down on shop workers per say.

 

Many people choose not to do a degree and instead use those few years to work hard to move up the ladder.

 

But 'someone' has to stack shelves etc. and my point was it shouldnt be Graduates. This experience doesnt help them as individuals, doesnt help the economy at all, its not helping Businesses, not utilizing the workforce.

 

Plus, Graduates are too good looking to stack shelves. I'm a good example of this point.

[TJC1 10]

That is indeed the point.

 

Time for me to do the soap box 'have a go at the lefties' again, but it's apt here.

 

A generation or two ago, the only people who went away to study for a degree were those who were either academically gifted, or choosing a vocational degree as part of a subject-specific career path. Industry/academia's requirements were roughly balanced by the outputs of the universities, and we were all happy.

 

Then, along came the socialist anti-elitism concept of 'higher education for all', and we end up with many times more graduates being trained, many in frivolous subjects, but with not many more opportunities for graduate level employment and, even worse, with a lower standard of UK degree as the entire standard had to be lowered in order to make it accessible to more people.

 

The government got it badly wrong when they decided to make higher education a ‘right’. It should have remained a privileged based on academic ability – don’t forget that when fewer people went to university/polytechnic, the government could afford to give them free grants to study.

 

Times change Conrod my good man, but I would have to agree with you here. Too many places at Uni for not enough jobs. Maybe the Uni fee increase will help to cap it. But still we need to create jobs?

Edited January 31, 2012 by TJC1
....

[TJC1 10]

A degree is not necessarily a professional qualification. If you want to use a degree to enter a profession, you need a degree which will suit you for entry to that profession.

 

 

 

Or could they have let themselves down by opting for 'easy' courses which do not lead to employment rather than by opting for the 'harder' courses, many of which do?

 

Firstly, although this is partly true. It's also not as black and white as that. A Business degree is quite vocational but it doesn't necessarily qualify you for anything. But you could also go into a Business profession with an English degree and find it helps massively.

 

 

Secondly, the majority of students do not opt for 'easy' courses to my knowledge. Most choose based on interests or something which will help them in a career. Any degree is hard, you still have to turn up to lectures, study and pass exams.

[Krispon_TM 10]

Hi Everyone,

 

This is a really interesting thread - I think the variety in the responses reflects the bigger issue, i.e. that there is no 'one size fits all' route in education, because the nature of the UK workforce is that all jobs require different skill-sets.

 

I suppose I'm only qualified to talk about architecture and the construction industry (I work for an architectural practice), but we get speculative applications from graduates all the time - most of them have completed their degree or diploma at the University of Sheffield (which is a very good school), but the majority are ill equipped to produce drawings / specifications to a level where they could get anything built. That's not picking fault with Sheffield Uni, because most graduates are the same regardless of the school of architecture that they graduate from.

 

On that basis, you have to question the point of spending seven years at university to qualify as an architect, to then find that you can produce incredible concepts, but you're clueless when it comes to getting anything built. The Architects Journal just published information to say that UCAS applications for architectural courses are down 16%, so that's above the average drop.

 

I think the answer is a more vocational approach (as it used to be). I have to question the morality of universities taking on students to provide them with theory and not a useful level of practice - they'd no doubt respond that the students also get 24 months work experience, but that's only if they can find a placement - at the moment they can't! I'd like to believe that the universities aren't there just for financial gain, but the indications are otherwise. A lot of practices aren't in a position to provide training positions while fees are so tight and the construction industry is on its knees.

[TJC1 10]

Hi Everyone,

 

This is a really interesting thread - I think the variety in the responses reflects the bigger issue, i.e. that there is no 'one size fits all' route in education, because the nature of the UK workforce is that all jobs require different skill-sets.

 

I suppose I'm only qualified to talk about architecture and the construction industry (I work for an architectural practice), but we get speculative applications from graduates all the time - most of them have completed their degree or diploma at the University of Sheffield (which is a very good school), but the majority are ill equipped to produce drawings / specifications to a level where they could get anything built. That's not picking fault with Sheffield Uni, because most graduates are the same regardless of the school of architecture that they graduate from.

 

On that basis, you have to question the point of spending seven years at university to qualify as an architect, to then find that you can produce incredible concepts, but you're clueless when it comes to getting anything built. The Architects Journal just published information to say that UCAS applications for architectural courses are down 16%, so that's above the average drop.

 

I think the answer is a more vocational approach (as it used to be). I have to question the morality of universities taking on students to provide them with theory and not a useful level of practice - they'd no doubt respond that the students also get 24 months work experience, but that's only if they can find a placement - at the moment they can't! I'd like to believe that the universities aren't there just for financial gain, but the indications are otherwise. A lot of practices aren't in a position to provide training positions while fees are so tight and the construction industry is on its knees.

 

I think you're absolutely spot on there. It is something I noticed with my own studies and when looking through applications. I could never understand why it takes 2 years to get any contact with industry in the form of a work placement. And even then, the kind of work placements offered are not always relevant to the course. Students need more exposure to professional work environments.

 

University is at least 6 months behind the commercial world / industry and some courses are simply 'too' theory based. A lot of courses do not equip students with the skills needed by employers in the workplace.

 

What would help, is organisations such as yours linking up with Universities, giving workshops, schooling on best practices and taking on more students on day release (even on a non-payment basis). Also this should be part of the curriculum rather than on an informal or ad-hoc basis.

Edited January 31, 2012 by TJC1
.....

[Conrod 10]

I think you're absolutely spot on there. It is something I noticed with my own studies and when looking through applications. I could never understand why it takes 2 years to get any contact with industry in the form of a work placement. And even then, the kind of work placements offered are not always relevant to the course. Students need more exposure to professional work environments.

 

University is at least 6 months behind the commercial world / industry and some courses are simply 'too' theory based. A lot of courses do not equip students with the skills needed by employers in the workplace.

 

What would help, is organisations such as yours linking up with Universities, giving workshops, schooling on best practices and taking on more students on day release (even on a non-payment basis).

Maybe I've missed recent developments, but in engineering courses there was a huge push for sandwich degrees 30 years ago; when I and my peers graduated we already had the experience of three 6-month placements, either with a single sponsor or a variety of different hosts/industries.

 

It was very useful for the student, the sandwich placement providers and the future employer. All seemed to work so well, I'm surprised it hasn't been rolled out to a wider audience.

[Conrod 10]

Times change Conrod my good man, but I would have to agree with you here. Too many places at Uni for not enough jobs. Maybe the Uni fee increase will help to cap it. But still we need to create jobs?

Far too many places at university, most young people aspiring for the three (four?) years away on the lash, and at the same time not enough people wishing to enter trades and pick up artisanal skills.

 

We're awash as a country with immigrant tradesmen filling huge gaps in the skilled labour trades, and I have friends with plumbing and building companies who just can't get the skiled people they need.

 

Medium-term, we have to accept that not everybody is either suited to degree study, or will benefit from it compared to what they would gain from an apprenticeship or practical college course with a trade output.

 

The jobs are there, but the young people have neither the skills nor the aspiration to do them, because so many have been encouraged into delusion over their future prospects as a graduate, when they should never have taken the graduate route in the first place.