OCCUPY - How informed are you?

[Runnybabbit 10]

Mostly non-violent and unarmed mass resistance movements take 20-30 years to come to fruition on a national level where the ruling elites are overturned or superceded. You get the occasional implosions from within that can be triggered by macroeconomic events but for the most part, it's a long, long slog. Ask Ghandi, or Aung San Suu Kyi or Nelson Mandela. And hundreds, even thousands died in the process.

 

What the continental timescales are likely to be, even with the internet, is anyone's guess. But whilst somewhere like Rumania imploded almost by accident, Europe or "The World" isn't going to do that. So the Occupy movement needs to be in for the very, very long haul.

 

Occupy is a tactic of a much larger movement. Also the world has changed now. The internet allows instant communication. That's why there are protests in Albania, Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Bahrain, Canada, Chile, Cuba, Cyprus, Egypt, Greece, Honduras, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Mexico, Tunisia, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States of America, Venezuela and Yemen

 

The Occupiers are well on their way to a global revolution. They are doing much better than the socialists have been doing for the last 70 years.

 

If you want, if we want, power which is what we are talking about here, then based on all the available evidence, it is only very very rarely given away. It has to be taken.

 

We already have the power. We are only just starting to realize and use it.

 

There are disruptive technologies and ideas and mass movements can make use of them.

 

Absolutely. That technology is called peer to peer. It's about to change the world. It is BETTER than the current systems. Right now it's music sharing, tomorrow the entire internet will be P2P. After that, banks, governments and even militaries will become distributed and decentralized.

 

The existing power structures have already lost. The only question now is how long will it take for them to realize it.

[dabuckle 10]

Occupy is an inside job - Sorry!

[Runnybabbit 10]

And the insults keep coming, at least with a concrete idea. If I ask another occupy supporter I'll get the same sort of thing ? I'll wager if you go on the tv and day that you'll be disowned quicker than that.

 

If it's that easy why don't you do it?

 

But your being selective. By not supporting the status quo do you want to close schools ? Do you want to abandon our current infrastructure ? Close all the libraries ?

 

Yes I am. Fascists and trolls on here do it. I'm just following their lead. In answer to the specific points you raise, yes, yes and yes.

 

See, I can pick and choose what you want to take apart...

 

I know, you do it all the time.

 

...just like you can pick and choose what my and your taxes are paying for.

When did I do that?

 

And occupy do disapprove of regular news sources.

 

That's different. They disapprove of them because they are deliberately being misrepresented

 

You've said it, donkeys said it and solomans said it. Your quick to insult.

 

What does this even mean?

 

Do I really want to turn up to these general meetings and say, I'm not sure I agree with what you say. If you are anything to go by all I'll get is an earful of abuse.

 

A bit like if I go on TV as you suggested in the beginning of your post. The difference is you have the ability to go down there and make your voice heard. I have no such opportunity with the mass media. They just talk AT me, with no two way feedback.

 

 

Enjoy your evening.

 

I will. Thank you

 

EDIT you didn't call people stupid but you called people greedy and selfish if they didn't agree with occupy and have a vested interest in the stays quo.

 

No I call people greedy and selfish when they act in ways that are greedy and selfish

 

So nurses and care workers who don't have time to go hunting and validating news stories, in the eyes of occupy are greedy and selfish.

 

They have the same time that you, me and everybody else has. The difference is that they don't SEEK OUT that information because they still believe the lies of the mainstream media and don't know any better (and incidentally right now you're not helping with that).

[tinfoilhat 11]

Occupy is an inside job - Sorry!

 

Post of the day. Forum nutjob and ace conspiracy theorist flies into the thread like randy quaid at the end of indepence day. You could also be right. Whilst ever we're all banging on about tents, citadels and bankers (sooooo 2009) we arent looking at pensions, high speed train networks etc.

 

Awesome.

[donkey 10]

Sure - but to say otherwise would be an empty platitude.

 

[edit - when you say 'ruling class' are you using that in the aristocratic sense or the financial one? It's an important distinction]

 

Unless someone can think of a way where we can get the financial elites to relinquish their power over currency, government and armed conflict without bloodshed, I'm all ears.

 

 

 

By ruling class, I mean whichever elite are currently using their advantage to cement their poistion and exclude the majority.

 

 

I see your point. The ultimate battle against corruption can only be won by the incorruptable. It is debatable whether such people exist. Any significant threat to the status quo is usually effectively dealt with through bribery and compromise, long before popular revolution breaks out.

 

However, the abscense of the possibility of the complete defeat of corruption does not neccessarily mean there is no point in continuing to oppose it in the hope of at least doing it some damage? It is probably a battle which will never end while there are still people to fight it.

[onewheeldave 22]

There should be a fifith choice, done research still don't understand occupy.

 

I really, really want to help but it's so badly thought out and organised and run my numpties I feel my time would be wasted. I checked out the literature but came away feeling frustrated...

 

....I say go back to the drawing board or at least be more transparent about what it is you are doing (really), or you run the risk of alienating a huge percentage of people who otherwise would be willing to back your cause.

 

 

That's fair enough- if the words of Occupy don't resonate with you, then you can simply not get involved- there's plenty of other options for bringing about change e.g. conventional politics and others, that you can look into and contribute to.

 

But, it's plain to see that the words of Occupy do resonate with many.

 

It seems a bit unreasonable to expect the movement to 'go back to the drawing board' or to pack up, just because some people can't see the point- not when there are many others who fully support the movement.

 

 

 

Why for instance have they got a wishlist of things like mobile phones and laptops - what are these for exactly?

 

Making phone calls and internet access/word processing etc

 

I think the wish list is because Occupy can make good use of phones/pcs and, if people are happy to donate them, obviously that's good because it will save Occupy buying new ones and free up their limited funds for other purposes.

[Phanerothyme 12]

By ruling class, I mean whichever elite are currently using their advantage to cement their poistion and exclude the majority.

 

 

I see your point. The ultimate battle against corruption can only be won by the incorruptable. It is debatable whether such people exist. Any significant threat to the status quo is usually effectively dealt with through bribery and compromise, long before popular revolution breaks out.

 

However, the abscense of the possibility of the complete defeat of corruption does not neccessarily mean there is no point in continuing to oppose it in the hope of at least doing it some damage? It is probably a battle which will never end while there are still people to fight it.

 

Well exactly. In many ways, there is value in a mass physical protest - but that in itself shouldn't be the objective so much as a single footstep forwards.

 

Mass communication is still vital even in the internet age because it's implicitly trusted by the technological lumpenproletariat, whom occupy are trying to save (along with everyone else).

 

But I don't detect any momentum, I don't really hear much about occupy other than that they are still occupying in places. There's no 'make you think' graffiti, or grabbing the mic live on air and delivering the worlds quickest discourse on thievanomics. I've heard some brilliant speakers from Occupy Wall street, and then listened to a fair few gits who think they've stumbled on "the answer" and everyone else needs re-education to "get it". Invariably they denigrate the "sheeple" and it all leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

 

A non-hierarchical, non violent diffuse movement with tight economic focus just cannot achieve sufficient mindspace like that.

 

My advice to Occupy would be get everyone in Occupy UK to get down and swell the Occupy LSX camp. Then register as voters down there.

 

The legal situation is well in hand, and although the judges won't allow a permanent encampment there, unless there is a really pressing need to have the whole thing removed (including Finsbury Square camp) it can be strung out for quite a while.

 

Basically try something like this http://blog.scrapperduncan.com/2012/01/08/basic-plan-for-democratic-seizure-of-city-of-london-corporation-mass-voter-registration/

The situation in the US is different I'm sure. The government know full well that if it comes to blows the population isn't without resources. The US has always led the way in extremes.

[tinfoilhat 11]

That's fair enough- if the words of Occupy don't resonate with you, then you can simply not get involved- there's plenty of other options for bringing about change e.g. conventional politics and others, that you can look into and contribute to.

 

But, it's plain to see that the words of Occupy do resonate with many.

 

It seems a bit unreasonable to expect the movement to 'go back to the drawing board' or to pack up, just because some people can't see the point- not when there are many others who fully support the movement.

 

 

 

 

Making phone calls and internet access/word processing etc

 

I think the wish list is because Occupy can make good use of phones/pcs and, if people are happy to donate them, obviously that's good because it will save Occupy buying new ones and free up their limited funds for other purposes.

 

I dont think it's the overall message people object to it's the lack of detail and increasingly for me at least, the method. I agree with Phanorthyme in so much a concentration of efforts in London would be the way to go.

[Runnybabbit 10]

I dont think it's the overall message people object to it's the lack of detail and increasingly for me at least, the method. I agree with Phanorthyme in so much a concentration of efforts in London would be the way to go.

 

There is plenty of detail should you choose to look for it. Just take a couple of keywords out of the Occupy message and go and google it for yourself. The problems have been known about by so many for so long. It's action that has always been lacking.

 

What is it about peaceful protest that you don't like?

 

If you think the occupiers should occupy London then go here (http://www.thetrainline.com) and buy yourself a ticket. Stop dismissing other peoples efforts from your armchair.

[tinfoilhat 11]

There is plenty of detail should you choose to look for it. Just take a couple of keywords out of the Occupy message and go and google it for yourself. The problems have been known about by so many for so long. It's action that has always been lacking.

 

What is it about peaceful protest that you don't like?

 

If you think the occupiers should occupy London then go here (http://www.thetrainline.com) and buy yourself a ticket. Stop dismissing other peoples efforts from your armchair.

 

I don't like the idea of anominity. It's another way to describe lack of responsibility. I don't buy the idea the police will track you down and bang you up. This isnt the soviet union or 70s south Africa.

 

And it isn't peaceful. Not on here anyway. You tear shreds out of people who don't share your viewpoint and call them lazy and selfish. That does not make you sound like a revolutionary fighting for good. You try to bully and belittle people. I won't support some anonymous, disorganised bullies.

Edited January 12, 2012 by tinfoilhat

[MrSmith 10]

The reason why people's opinions differ from those of the occupy protestors is because they still get their information from the television.

 

The people who chose the television's agenda have different opinions to the Occupy protestors because they are all selfish and greedy and they have a vested interest in the status quo.

 

People who research things for themselves tend to agree with the occupy protestors. That doesn't include you MrSmith because you have proven time and again that you don't do any research and rather just blindly parrot what is shown on T.V.

 

That’s an interesting theory which is wrong and irrelevant.

[MrSmith 10]

Yeah mr smith, there are literally thousands of grainy YouTube videos out there man. That's the real truth.

 

Let occupy think for you, they have all the answers, we're just, what's the word ? Sheeple. We, regular people who go about our business are just pawns. Ignorant, stupid pawns who love banks and mps.

 

Now get with the programme non-believers. Buy a tent.

 

I've just been and bought one, all these insults have convinced me they must be right.