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Occupy Sheffield Cathedral

do you think the protesters deserve to stay ?  

599 members have voted

  1. 1. do you think the protesters deserve to stay ?

    • yes, and they should be encouraged to stay
      217
    • no, and they should be evicted by the church
      382


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There are world renowned economists who disagree with you. When I see your Nobel Prize I might take time to reconsider. Until then, Joseph Stiglitz wins.

 

There are always "world renowned" "experts" who will agree with whatever their own politics or financial backers want them to agree with. There were and are experts who say communism works and is a good idea. Left-wingers are always trying to justify what they say by saying someone else agrees with them and quoting names because they believe that makes them sound intelligent.:hihi:

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I wouldn't agree with the word 'more'. The poor don't have 'more', and thus they don't pay it. The questions run deeper than just simply paying more tax.

 

We have some big points in society about wealth distribution, the power of corporations in the global market, public subsidy on failing financial sectors, debt restructuring, fiscal austerity. They are huge points, and asking questions of them does society no harm at all.

 

Asking questions is the easy part. Offering solutions the hard one. I actually have some sympathy for the notion that the extremely wealthy people in our societies do not pay their fair share of taxes. But, I have no sympathy at all for disorganized bunches of people continuing to ply the mantra about the 1% and 99% without offering any specific proposals at all. Add on to this the fact that the groups themselves have no coherency, complaining about everything under the sun from the environment, globalization, capitalism, world poverty, nuclear disarmament. Did I miss out the seal hunt? My message to these groups is Get real. Come down from your ideological platforms and present some concrete proposals around one issue. Better still, get involved in the democratic process to bring about real change. Less attention grabbing I guess.

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Left-wingers are always trying to justify what they say

Put me in a box, label me up and stick me on a shelf. Then you don't have to think about anything I've said or deal with it.

 

Stiglitz was an economist under Clinton.

 

 

Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret.

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it used to be 5% in the UK. I'm really not sure where the 1% comes from with regards to this country.

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Offering solutions the hard one.

Indeed, vastly more difficult. I've heard this criticism a lot, and I'm trying to do something about it by reading and reading and reading some more.

 

Like all things in life though, answers are up to debate. A protest that sparks that debate isn't a bad thing.

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If decent hardworking people were paid a proper wage instead of the lowest possible, in order to maximise profits for the 1%, and if businesses sold products for a fair price, including food, gas and electricity, and credit, insurances, etc, then people would still be able to spend within their means and enjoy the lifestyles they deserved.

 

 

 

You have hit on the problem but probably not for the reason you think.

 

The UK is a low wage, high tax economy. Everyone wants world class public services and politicians win power by promising just that. Sadly, we cannot afford world class public services and we have not been able to afford them for a long time. To keep them going we have been borrowing a lot of money. Even in the good years of 2005-2008 Gordon Brown was borrowing nearly £1bn a week to keep them going. Now it is nearer £4bn a week.

 

The root of the problem is that we earn very little new money from abroad by selling things like we used to. So to keep things running we have to tax people and businesses very heavily here at home. That means business has to pay relatively high wages which makes them uncompetitive in the world market.

 

But, those high wages don't translate into high earnings because so much goes in tax. It's a cycle of downward destruction. Industry is not competitive so it employs less people, less working people means more unemployment benefits required. That means taxes have to go up. That makes businesses even less competitive etc etc. So it goes on. Labour tried to beat the downward decline by employing more people in the public sector. That was fools economics as we can now see.

 

Labour and Sheffield City Council think you can run an economy on borrowed money. Eventually the people lending it to us will stop and want it back plus interest.

 

The reality and the the most unpalatable truth is that this country has been living beyond its means for years. The lifestyle you think people deserve is a myth. The lifestyle people deserve is actually a lot worse than they have at the moment. Lifestyles since the 1960s have been based on borrowed money. That's got to stop and we have to live within our means. It's not popular and politicians will tell you they have another way and you'll vote for them. But, in the end, the bills will have to paid and then it will get much worse than it is now.

 

I've said it before but capitalism works. It has delivered wealth and prosperity to this country. It's got a bit out of hand and needs tough regulation but it is our only hope. It's Socialism and their Something for Nothing doctrine that has brought us and the whole of Europe to the brink.

Edited by Jim Graham
Ooooooops

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More, if defined in terms of proportion of income: VAT

 

Yes but the rich don't avoid and they pay more VAT in real terms.

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Put me in a box, label me up and stick me on a shelf. Then you don't have to think about anything I've said or deal with it.

 

Stiglitz was an economist under Clinton.

 

 

Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret.

 

you are giving yourself a label, and you are repeating what many people just like you have said before. If you dont understand the leftwing reference, you dont understand the subject.

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Went along and met them this morning. NOT out of work layabouts like a lot of people on this forum seem to think they are. Struck me as being good decent people who are sick and tired about what is going on right now in this country. All power to their elbow ! It's a pity a few more people don't get off their backsides and QUESTION what is going on right now !

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Yes but the rich ... pay more VAT in real terms.

 

Hence the definition. Actually, it would be interesting to know the absolute figures - I suspect that your assumption might be wrong, but I would not know where to start hunting down the figures for the UK.

 

Does anybody know what proportion of VAT is paid by which income bands?

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Went along and met them this morning. NOT out of work layabouts like a lot of people on this forum seem to think they are. Struck me as being good decent people who are sick and tired about what is going on right now in this country. All power to their elbow ! It's a pity a few more people don't get off their backsides and QUESTION what is going on right now !

 

Can you describe what you feel IS going on right now in this country?

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