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Occupy Sheffield Cathedral

do you think the protesters deserve to stay ?  

599 members have voted

  1. 1. do you think the protesters deserve to stay ?

    • yes, and they should be encouraged to stay
      217
    • no, and they should be evicted by the church
      382


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i know it's off topic, but what is unrealistic about banks writing off a large proportion of the debt they are owed - they do it every day for individuals and companies

 

60-70%? Just not going to happen.

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i know it's off topic, but what is unrealistic about banks writing off a large proportion of the debt they are owed - they do it every day for individuals and companies

 

It's also one of the triggers for this mess - them realising the money they'd lent out didn't exist and the chances were they weren't going to see it again causing them to collapse.

 

If everybody spent with in their means, banks and governments included, we wouldn't be in such a precarious financial position.

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The problem is that they've generated more media coverage for disrupting the Church, than what they're actually protesting about. As robbie says, if they chained themselves up outside the banks, disrupting them rather than people's weddings, maybe the media reporting would be a little bit more on topic.

 

The news that two high profile people were resigning from St Pauls because of disagreements about the disruption has so far generated more press coverage than all of the occupations in the UK put together.

 

Likewise, people are discussing the disruption being caused to the cathedral on this forum, and generally posting abuse about the actual protesters for not seeming to have any realistic aims, and for choosing where to protest based on where they're going to have the easiest time at avoiding being moved on.

 

There may be a valid point to these protests in Sheffield, but for the time being, dabackles list of unrealistic demands excepted, it's escaping me. And that is the fault of the protesters.

 

I didn't see any disruption with regards to the function of the cathedral when I past it yesterday; and with regards to the internal politics within the church, I can't help but feel that this side issue has pricked the conscience within the church regarding what the church is and what it stands for as well as causing questions to be asked regarding some of the hypocrisy that lies within.

 

In a way the protesters are seeking a form of sanctuary in their protest from the church, because I'm sure that if this protest was in another place, the police would not have to handle this matter with such diplomacy risking an escalation of matters as seen in other occupy protests.

Edited by NorthernStar

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60-70%? Just not going to happen.

 

What is not going to happen? That banks will write off 60-70% of the money they are owed to enable them to receive at least something?

 

It happens every day for hundreds of account holders - in the 9 months to the end of September 2011 there were 576 company voluntary arrangements approved and 36,009 individual voluntary arrangements

 

a voluntary arrangement is an agreement between the individual/company and its creditors that (usually) they will make payments from future income over a period of time (often 5 years) at the end of which the creditor writes off any balance owed

 

a typical IVA would return something between 20-50% to the creditors - in other words the creditor writes off 50-80% of the debt

 

Happens hundreds of times everyday

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There was an interesting article by Matthew Parris in the Times a week or so ago (I can't provide a link for two reasons, firstly I think you have to subscribe to it, and secondly I don't know how to attach links)

 

It's a bit off topic to start with but gets there in the end

 

He was commenting on the speech by Ed Milliband at the Labour conference in which he talked about "good" and "bad" capitalism - the gist of the article was mocking his speech in that it was ill-thought out and too vague a concept.

 

However, Parris (a former Conservative MP) went on to quote Adair Turner, the former Chairman of the CBI and Chairman of the FSA who said (paraphrasing) that capitalism should not be an ethics free zone, some financial activities are less socially useful than others and that the banking crisis was "cooked up in trading rooms where many people received annual bonuses greater than a lifetime's earnings of those now suffering the consequences" and that capitalism should not brush this aside

 

Parris also quoted David Willetts (a Conservative minister) who said that the biggest threat to capitalism is its inherent tendency to undermine the non-market values that a free market society depends upon

 

Parris went on to say that the Great British public doesn't really understand capitalism, and probably wouldn't like it if it did, but they go along with it because (and while) it continues to make them richer - if it stops making them richer, beware.

 

He concluded by saying that, for every protest junkie in a tent yelling "Down with global capitalism", there are a thousand middle income households in Bromley, Bletchley and Barrow looking at the 49% increase in top directors' pay and muttering "it just isn't right"

 

That is the point of the protests - you don't have to agree with their ideologies to see that they have a point - anyone who thinks that the current system is fine and working well for the majority of the UK population seriously needs a reality check

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"For a start, you can't irradicate poverty or famine" Why can't you ?

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"For a start, you can't irradicate poverty or famine" Why can't you ?

 

Poverty is a statistical definition - it used to be people in the lowest 10% of living conditions, and while the boundaries may have changed, it is still measured in the same way, so some people will always be in poverty. Therefore the only way to irradicate it is to redefine it, which I doubt is what the protesters are wanting.

 

Famine will always happen when there are interruptions in the food chain, be them natural or man made. We can take precautions but it can't be irradicated. If the US grain supply was to be interrupted for a couple of years for whatever reason, there would be major food shortages even in such a developed country. Countries which don't have such vast quanties of farmable land, especially those which are also hot and dry are in an even more precarious condition.

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What is not going to happen? That banks will write off 60-70% of the money they are owed to enable them to receive at least something?

 

It happens every day for hundreds of account holders - in the 9 months to the end of September 2011 there were 576 company voluntary arrangements approved and 36,009 individual voluntary arrangements

 

a voluntary arrangement is an agreement between the individual/company and its creditors that (usually) they will make payments from future income over a period of time (often 5 years) at the end of which the creditor writes off any balance owed

 

a typical IVA would return something between 20-50% to the creditors - in other words the creditor writes off 50-80% of the debt

 

Happens hundreds of times everyday

 

Of course it happens everyday. Bankruptcies happen, special deals are arranged, but only on a case by case basis and borne out of necessity.

 

But, to suggest that the banks would or could write off 60-70% of their debts on a widespread comprehensive basis as one of the posters suggested is ridiculous. Unless you happen to be living in la la land. Again, this notion is a throwback to the hippies of the 60s....many of whom are now bankers and company CEOs. Is there a lesson to be learned there?

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the banking crisis was "cooked up in trading rooms where many people received annual bonuses greater than a lifetime's earnings of those now suffering the consequences" and that capitalism should not brush this aside

 

He concluded by saying that, for every protest junkie in a tent yelling "Down with global capitalism", there are a thousand middle income households in Bromley, Bletchley and Barrow looking at the 49% increase in top directors' pay and muttering "it just isn't right"

 

That is the point of the protests - you don't have to agree with their ideologies to see that they have a point - anyone who thinks that the current system is fine and working well for the majority of the UK population seriously needs a reality check

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I don't think Capitalism works well but it works. Socialism does not work at all and it never has. Too many of the protesters are lefties who think punishing bankers and giving the money to them would solve all our problems.

 

Controlled Capitalism could work well but politicians simply do not have the skills or cohones to put in place a system of checks and balances that would deliver steady, sustainable growth. As a country we are in competition with other nations so we have to be careful not to do anything that would disadvantage us globally. And there lies the problem.

 

I am one of the people muttering "it just isn't right" but until someone comes up with a way of dealing with that level of greed nothing is going to change. Sitting in tents in major cities brings the idea of change but nobody has any ideas how to change.

Edited by Jim Graham
Ooops

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Excuse my ignorance. Ive seen the tents etc today. What are they protesting about exactly?

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Excuse my ignorance. Ive seen the tents etc today. What are they protesting about exactly?

 

Exactly what I wondered.

Also how many of them work? If they don't work and are on job seekers, then they are hardly available for work while protesting.

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Exactly what I wondered.

Also how many of them work? If they don't work and are on job seekers, then they are hardly available for work while protesting.

maybe the dept of work & pensions investigators ought to take a trip down there and take a few names take a few pics, it is after all only up the road at steel city house, in fact i know a few that work therem might just suggest it :o

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