American writer needs critique of Sheffield dialect in short story

[Ian Rivedon 10]

Hecate,

 

Hear hear! I couldn't agree more. Even Dickens fell into that trap. His dialogue for the character Stephen Blackpool in Hard Times is excruciating.

 

IR

[KittiPaws 10]

Have you read any Reginald Hill? His Yorkshire detective Andy Dalziel is a master class in northerness. Rather than have the text directly reflect his accent, it instead mirrors the Yorkshire speech patterns, with occasional nods to favourite words and phrases ("let the buggers wait"; "make us a cup of tea, lass").

 

Opening up 'An Advancement of Learning' at a random page, we have:

 

 

With those spare phrases, you don't need to have 'You'll 'ave to mek do wi' me' on the page to understand that that's how it came out of his mouth; Hill has established his character so now he doesn't have to be quite so explicitly and extravagantly Yorkshire with his dialogue.

 

I think if you try too hard with the dialogue, it might end up coming across with a bit too much Joseph in 'Wuthering Heights'.

 

I haven't read any Reginald Hill, but I'll make it a point to look for his books at the library. The more I think about it, the more I agree it might be a wise idea to use the speech patterns rather than the explicit accent. The exception would be the flashback. I like the use of the accent there.

 

Thanks so much, everyone! This discussion has been very helpful.

[scoop 10]

I wonder if you should perhaps try not for complete broad-Sheffield authenticity in the dialogue, but instead establish the accent for the reader in a way that's thoroughly approachable and easily-digested by the widest possible audience.

 

To a non-Sheffield ear the broad accent and dialect can be impenetrable, and when written if can jolt the reader out of the story world while they try to get a grip on not only how the words are pronounced but what they mean.

 

I agree with Lady Agatha: if the character has spent many years away from Sheffield, especially if he's been immersed in a place whose residents have an equally strong accent, his broad Sheffield will be heavily diluted by now. I've lived away from Sheffield for going on twenty years, and while my accent is still recognisably northern, the edges have been mostly worn smooth. I still might say "put t'kettle on" (which some southerners might read as "put tkettle on", sounding the t as it is in 'top') or "I've put it int' cupboard", but I'd be unlikely to say "does tha' know tha's reight mardy, thee", unless it's for comedy effect, as no one would have a clue about what I'm saying.

 

Perhaps you could use a few dialect words, and scatter "in't it" (not "innit"!) around, but don't go for slavishly reproducing the authentic Sheffielder conversation experience. Unless you want to, of course .

I've lived in Sheffield all my life (and not in the posh bits either) and I've never spoken like that, my grandads did, but I think words such as thee and tha have long gone.

 

Still accuse folk of being mardy on a regular basis though!

[Guest]

I've lived in Sheffield all my life (and not in the posh bits either) and I've never spoken like that, my grandads did, but I think words such as thee and tha have long gone. ...

I was using it to illustrate a very broad Sheffield accent, not necessarily one that's in common use by everyone in all areas of the city.

 

While I'd agree that the use of those words might be on the decline - particularly in the under 40s - they're certainly not extinct, at least in the bit of Sheffield I call home (affectionately referred to as 'the arse end'): "Get thi' sen int' 'ouse" from the mouth of a relative's (not-quite-fifty year old) neighbour, heard by me on my last visit. Perhaps "Get yer sen int' 'ouse" might be slightly less old school .

[Guest]

I haven't read any Reginald Hill, but I'll make it a point to look for his books at the library. The more I think about it, the more I agree it might be a wise idea to use the speech patterns rather than the explicit accent. The exception would be the flashback. I like the use of the accent there.

 

Thanks so much, everyone! This discussion has been very helpful.

I noticed when I posted my reply last night that I've managed to acquire two copies of Hill's 'An Advancement of Learning'. I'd be happy to send you one of them, if you like.

[KittiPaws 10]

I noticed when I posted my reply last night that I've managed to acquire two copies of Hill's 'An Advancement of Learning'. I'd be happy to send you one of them, if you like.

 

That would be awesome! I'll send you a PM with my address.

Edited October 23, 2011 by KittiPaws

[fraggledance 10]

Hello Kittipaws

 

I really enjoyed your story and wanted to read more. It worked as a story on its own but it also felt like it could be the first chapter of a book. I couldn't help already feeling anxious about whether or not Aug would confess/get caught, even when the story had ended!

 

I think all the points about dialogue have already been made. The only thing I would add is that I think the main reason the dialect didn't sit easily with me (apart from what has been mentioned above) was that it was inconsistent. When your characters were speaking in the present, rather than the flashbacks, they started off speaking not in dialect and i was used to this so that it jarred somewhat and felt unrealistic and out of character when one of them would suddenly say something (again in the present) in very strong dialect. I think it has to be consistently one or the other.

 

It seems like you've decided to use speech patterns rather than dialect (apart from in the flashbacks) and so it is a bit superfluous of me to point this out, but i have enjoyed reading everyone's observations and found it a very interesting discussion and so just thought i'd add to it.

 

although actually, on a re-read of your original post, had you only put certain bits as dialect as a tester before putting the whole lot in dialect? in which case what i've said doesn't apply at all!

[KittiPaws 10]

Thank you so much for the great comments, Fraggledance! It makes me very happy that you wanted to see more, and that you were worrying about Aug even after the story was over. IMO, that's one of the best compliments a writer can be paid about her characters.

 

I did end up using speech patterns instead of dialect (except in the case of the flashback and Joe's thickening up his accent at the diner for the young waitress's benefit). I do like it much better this way.

 

When I first posted bits of dialogue for "translation" into dialect, I thought perhaps a word or two of my original lines might be changed. I didn't realize how completely the dialect is a language unto itself. lol It was a lot of fun, though. The most fun I've had writing a story in a long time. I'm actually sorry that I've finished the story and sent it off.

 

If this story doesn't go anywhere as a short, I'm definitely planning to take it to novel length. I've got pages of backstory that I wrote in order to get to know my characters, most of which never made it into the story itself. I'd love the chance to work with these characters again. I've grown quite fond of them!