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Lets put Islam and the west's relationship into some real context.

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That is the will of the politicians not the ruling of the RC church which granted is anti abortion etc.

 

You do know that Catholic priests told parishoners to vote 'No' the Sunday before the divorce referendum was held in Ireland? :confused:

 

John X

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The sad thing is he isn't. He just posts what comes into his head without checking his facts. I meant to add to my post that abortion is extremely limited in Northern Ireland due to pressure from both sides of the Christian divide. I'm just waiting for bassman to come back and blame Islam for that, the IRA, UVF, etc.

 

Genuinely I did think he was kidding...even if it was for effect. I never thought even bassman would be so moronically naive as to think the Catholic church has no political power or influence over politics or people. I mean the Catholic church is so limp wristed and powerless it doesn't even have it's own sovereign state.

 

oh!...hold on.

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Islamic courts can and do overule civil courts in Pakistan.

Those countries you've mentioned do they sentence people to death for:-

Adultry

Homsexuality

Blasphemy

Women for being educated

Leaving the RC church as happens to muslims who leave islam.

 

The death sentence in most of the countries you've mentioned have nothing to do with religion but are usualy for capital offences etc.

 

The only examples I could find of states having captal punishments for those "crimes" are in Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Afghanistan and Iran. None of these countries has the punishment for all these "offences" and none has executed people for all. There were no records of any executions for apostasy.

 

Afghanistan is a client state of the West. The Taliban may kill women for trying to get an education but they're no longer in government. Pakistan is also a client state of the US, and Saudi Arabia is very pro-West. The Somali government controls very little of its territory.

 

The people who advocate or carry out these punishments are barbaric, just like anti-abortionist Christians in the USA who murder abortionists. In Islam they represent a minority of offences in a minority of muslim countries, and a minority of Muslims, just as anti-abortionist murderers are just a small percentage of anti-abortionists.

 

The world's just not as black and white as you think it is, bassman.

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That is the will of the politicians not the ruling of the RC church which granted is anti abortion etc.

Can't you understand the difference?

 

So, the RC church wasn't the body which put the pressure on those countries' governments to outlaw Abortion, then?

 

Deary me. Must try harder, bassman!

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Could you elaborate instead of resorting to meaningless cliches. What point have I missed? Which wood and which trees should I look at or not look at? I gave concrete examples about the Vatican's refusal to adapt to modernity i.e. most things since the Reformation. Please tell me how I am wrong about abortion, HIV/AIDS, women priests, paedophila, etc, and please give concrete examples of the Vatican's flexibility on whatever social issues you care to name.

 

Holds breath 1 2 3 4 5 huuurrrgh

 

You are labouring on the erroneous assumption that I am saying the Christian church is a good thing.

If you read what I said, it the exact opposite of that.

I said the Christian church was founded by an arch manipulator, who could bend and twist to suit circumstances.

The Church founded by mohammed is the exact opposite, by its very nature, it cannot bend and twist, or manipulate. it can only lay down unchanging inflexible dogma.

 

All the details about abortion, hanging women from HIABS etc, are claptrap, and are a distraction from the main plan.

viz:-

The only function of any Church is to keep the working man in his place, and to promise him good things when he is dead. And nothing while he is alive.

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The only function of any Church is to keep the working man in his place, and to promise him good things when he is dead. And nothing while he is alive.

 

So how do you explain all those individuals who have become better people (to themselves as well as others), through the medium of Faith ?

 

If they didn't choose to be religious, they'd still be on drugs, taking part in crime etc... are you saying certain people embracing the 'Church' is a bad thing ?

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So how do you explain all those individuals who have become better people (to themselves as well as others), through the medium of Faith ?

 

If they didn't choose to be religious, they'd still be on drugs, taking part in crime etc... are you saying certain people embracing the 'Church' is a bad thing ?

 

Better in what fashion?

I would say for some people that embracing the church is a good thing.

It is a good hobby and helps keep them entertained.

Some do take it to extremes though.

 

For example your local religious mentor encouraging you to learn to fly is a good thing.

It is just that some take it a tad too far, and get silly about it.

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If they didn't choose to be religious, they'd still be on drugs, taking part in crime etc... are you saying certain people embracing the 'Church' is a bad thing ?

 

But you could say the same about someone who packs in alcohol and takes up heroin. It's an improvement but still not good.

 

John X

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I do, though I view all religions in the same manner and the world would be a better place without any of them.

 

 

 

Pretty much.

 

 

 

Which is patently untrue. Believing in something with no proof is far from perfect.

 

 

 

Bloody hell, when will it end?:D;)

 

 

 

There's that kettle again.:rolleyes:

 

 

 

Not any of the Muslims I know personally. Maybe you need to actually get out and get to know some of the people you continually berate on here before posting such drivel.

 

 

 

So you advocate killing people because they won't give up their religion?

 

You and the fundamentalist zealots of all religions share the same ideology.

Bassman a fundamentalist zealot? Never!.

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Except as a 'man-made' concept, religion is actually defined as a collection of its followers!

 

Once the last follower stops believing, the religion ceases to exist. ;)

 

John X

 

Aah valid point there John X however do you think religion will ever cease?.

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Aah valid point there John X however do you think religion will ever cease?.

 

Eventually it has to.

 

When that will be I don't know. Religion in any kind of organised form has been around for a few thousand years. The age of enlightenment is only 250 years old.

 

I guess religion will go when we as a species have a greater understanding of ourselves and the universe. Religion only exists as an surrogate answer to the question 'what happens when we die?' No other part of the animal kingdom believes in the afterlife as they have no meaningful concept of death (not even those wonderful creatures we call elephants!) and therefore have no need for an explanation.

 

Once that 'useful' construct no longer has a role it will gradually disappear. Some may hold on out of some form of sentimentality but that won't survive more than a couple of generations especially as it will then be seen in a historical context rather than a contemporary one and that context will be a largely very negative one.

 

John X

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Aah valid point there John X however do you think religion will ever cease?.

 

I dont know about John, but I believe religion will never end.

I dont mean organised churches and faith etc, but religion in ones soul.

 

While ever we have imagination, and understand what we are looking at, then a persons belief in God is strengthened.

The more we learn, the less we know is a true saying.

 

By belief in God, I do not mean some caring being who looks after you day to day.

I mean a massive force and controlling power that pulled all the Universe together in the first place.

These vast unimaginable forces are not controlled by mere accident.

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