Metro: One Third Believe Flirtatious Women 'Ask' for Rape

[Jamie 10]

Originally posted by Cyclone

why not set up a poll and find out what the results are from the cross section of people here.

I'll put £10 on the results being not at all similar to the ones in the survey, at least if we word the questions without slanting them to get the result we want, which is what appears to have been done.

 

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

Just a question of what questions to ask in a poll ...

[banesmabes 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

Hmmmm, OK, I am wondering if what banesmabes is getting at is the following:

 

If we suggest that women should learn to defend themselves and reduce risk of rape by modification of their behaviour, doing these things are of course good, but by suggesting them, it kind of lets society / the establishment 'off the hook' when it comes to having appropriate mechanisms / punishments in place to disuade potential rapists.

 

That make sense?

 

Fairly well summarised. It does seem to be used as a get out clause from having to deal with the real issues. I know people mean well when they give this advice, but it is advice that will have no effect on the vast majority of rapes. How would women modifying their behavior in the ways suggested be protected from rape by their partner? (up to 60% of rapes). or a friend? (like me) or a family member? (we're up to about 83% of rapes now). There is a disproportionate emphasis on women modifying their behaviour and very little focus on how we really can decrease the incidence of rape. IMO the emphasis on female behaviour modification is part of the same problem as women being held partly or wholly responsible for being raped for whatever reason. It is all part of society's rather antiquated perception of rape and how to deal with it.

[Jamie 10]

Clearly there's a lot to differentiate between here.

 

Most rapes, not being of the flirty, scantily clad girl on the street, gets drunk, walks home alone variety (have we seen any statistics, or numbers to back this claim up?).

 

Doing what you can, to make yourself safer (you will never be 100% safe), while being a good thing in itself, can also detract societies attention away from doing anything more to address the issue of rape (and therein lies banesmabes objection to such advice?).

 

So what would you like to see happen, banesmabes, to make the world a safer place for women?

[Bic0 10]

The word "responsible" can have more than one meaning in the context of the survey... Let's replace it and make the question an honest, simple and straightforward one...

 

Q3. I am now going to read out a series of scenarios which a woman may find herself in. In each could you please indicate whether you believe a woman deserves to be raped, deserves to some extent to be raped, does not deserve to be raped.

 

a) The woman is drunk.

b) The woman has behaved in a flirtatious manner.

c) The woman has failed to say 'no' clearly to the man.

d) A woman is wearing sexy or revealing clothes.

e) It is known that the woman has many sexual partners.

f) The woman is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area.

 

Had this been the question, I doubt very much indeed that Amnesty International’s ‘Stop Violence Against Women’ campaign organisers would have been at all satisfied with the results.

 

To Banesmabes and others...

As for the many other circumstances in which rape can occur, please bear in mind that the crime of rape is only committed by a very small minority of men, most of us aren't animals, most of us can control our desires (even when inebriated), most of us are disgusted by the very idea of raping a woman, most of us despise rapists, most of us acknowledge that a woman dressing in skimpy clothing, flirting, being drunk, walking alone, etc.,etc., doesn't mean that she is "asking for it". Most men are decent human beings and they are the MAJORITY!

 

I agree that women shouldn't have to modify their behaviour to minimise the risk of rape, as houses shouldn't need to be secured, cars left locked etc.... But they DO! In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary, unfortunately as we know, this isn't a perfect world that we live in and therefore such precautions do need to be taken. Rapists exist, murderers exist, thieves exist, muggers exist... That's a fact of life and no amount of saying that they need to be educated into believing that women are not sex-objects and that it's wrong to murder and rob, is going to alter that fact any time soon!

[Kthebean 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

Doing what you can, to make yourself safer (you will never be 100% safe), while being a good thing in itself, can also detract societies attention away from doing anything more to address the issue of rape (and therein lies banesmabes objection to such advice?).

 

This is strongly how I feel.

 

Whilst we concentrate rape prevention on making women dress properly, and not go out alone, and not flirt too much, and not accept drinks from strangers, we are diverting attention from the majority of rapes.

 

I agree that women shouldn't have to modify their behaviour to minimise the risk of rape, as houses shouldn't need to be secured, cars left locked etc.... But they DO! In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary, unfortunately as we know, this isn't a perfect world that we live in and therefore such precautions do need to be taken. Rapists exist, murderers exist, thieves exist, muggers exist... That's a fact of life and no amount of saying that they need to be educated into believing that women are not sex-objects and that it's wrong to murder and rob, is going to alter that fact any time soon!

 

Those precautions don't amount to diddly squat, as I keep saying, if the rapist (as is normally the case) is someone you know and trust, and its a 'don't tell anyone our little secret' type thing. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

So Jamie, you ask the important question, what can we do?

 

Well, debates like this are important. As are campaigns like the one I'm involved in, you can find it at http://www.truthaboutrape.co.uk

Has anyone seen the recent Hollyoaks date rape storyline? Things like that make good conversation starters. Parents need to take responsibility by not allowing their children to witness domestic violence and grow to feel that it is the norm.

 

Boys and girls need to be taught MORE sex education in schools - what is acceptable and what isn't. Women should be taken seriously when they claim they have been raped.

[Kthebean 10]

Originally posted by Bic0

To Banesmabes and others...

As for the many other circumstances in which rape can occur, please bear in mind that the crime of rape is only committed by a very small minority of men, most of us aren't animals, most of us can control our desires (even when inebriated), most of us are disgusted by the very idea of raping a woman, most of us despise rapists, most of us acknowledge that a woman dressing in skimpy clothing, flirting, being drunk, walking alone, etc.,etc., doesn't mean that she is "asking for it". Most men are decent human beings and they are the MAJORITY!

 

In addition, Bic0, I empathise with your position.

 

However, you have to understand, real rape is never about a mans 'desire' to have sex with a beautiful woman. Its about power, control and violence.

 

Rapists don't rape because they're drunk!

 

There have been so many times when I've been in positions where men could take advantage of me - and they haven't - they have been kind and considerate and gentlemenlike. Yes, I am a feminist but many of my best friends are men and I have had a boyfriend for a long time.

 

This is not about men vs women. This is about rapists vs the rest of us!

[SatanInHeels 10]

How can no mean anything but NO, no matter what the woman is wearing, doing, saying or drinking?

[t020 11]

Originally posted by Bic0

The word "responsible" can have more than one meaning in the context of the survey... Let's replace it and make the question an honest, simple and straightforward one...

 

Q3. I am now going to read out a series of scenarios which a woman may find herself in. In each could you please indicate whether you believe a woman deserves to be raped, deserves to some extent to be raped, does not deserve to be raped.

 

a) The woman is drunk.

b) The woman has behaved in a flirtatious manner.

c) The woman has failed to say 'no' clearly to the man.

d) A woman is wearing sexy or revealing clothes.

e) It is known that the woman has many sexual partners.

f) The woman is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area.

 

Had this been the question, I doubt very much indeed that Amnesty International’s ‘Stop Violence Against Women’ campaign organisers would have been at all satisfied with the results.

 

To Banesmabes and others...

As for the many other circumstances in which rape can occur, please bear in mind that the crime of rape is only committed by a very small minority of men, most of us aren't animals, most of us can control our desires (even when inebriated), most of us are disgusted by the very idea of raping a woman, most of us despise rapists, most of us acknowledge that a woman dressing in skimpy clothing, flirting, being drunk, walking alone, etc.,etc., doesn't mean that she is "asking for it". Most men are decent human beings and they are the MAJORITY!

 

I agree that women shouldn't have to modify their behaviour to minimise the risk of rape, as houses shouldn't need to be secured, cars left locked etc.... But they DO! In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary, unfortunately as we know, this isn't a perfect world that we live in and therefore such precautions do need to be taken. Rapists exist, murderers exist, thieves exist, muggers exist... That's a fact of life and no amount of saying that they need to be educated into believing that women are not sex-objects and that it's wrong to murder and rob, is going to alter that fact any time soon!

 

 

Well said, I agree entirely.

 

Kathythebean - the fact that most rapes are by people that know the woman is irrelevant. Even if only 5% of rapes are committed by strangers, it's still better to try to minimise the risk of it happening than disregarding completely on the basis that it only forms a small proportion of all rapes. This means adapting behaviour to decrease the likelihood of being a victim of crime - like we all do when we take radio faces out of our cars, take car keys to bed, buy burglar alarms, etc etc. It's the way of the world, unfortunately.

[ANGELUS 10]

My thoughts on this:

I read through the Metro article with great interest and something very simple occured to me.

 

If you get so ****** out of your mind when you go out and cannot control yourself, what kind of signals are you sending out to people?

 

Nobody deserves to be raped, I'd like to make that clear before anyone jumps on me- but I have seen a lot of women out on the town that are giving men the wrong signals and I think that is one of the problems also.

 

And if you go home with a stranger, what type of signals are you giving them then? Your not going back to their house just for a coffee and a chat are you?

[Cliff Clavin 10]

No one desreves to be raped! Full Stop!

 

It doesn't matter what signals are given, what situation you or someone has put themselves in, there is no excuse! No or Stop, means No! or Stop!

[t020 11]

Originally posted by wayne72

No one desreves to be raped! Full Stop!

 

It doesn't matter what signals are given, what situation you someone has put themselves in, there is no excuse! No or Stop means No! or Stop!

 

Please point to a SINGLE post on this thread that has said any woman *deserves* to be raped at all? You can't, because NOBODY has said that.

[Cliff Clavin 10]

Originally posted by t020

Please point to a SINGLE post on this thread that has said any woman *deserves* to be raped at all? You can't, because NOBODY has said that.

 

Thus the reason I NEVER pointed to a thread, I was just making a statement! Or am I not allowed to?

 

 

Your signature now appears strange???? allodoxaphobia