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Metro: One Third Believe Flirtatious Women 'Ask' for Rape

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Analogy-

 

Imagine this, you (whether you are male or female) meet someone who is flashing a large amount of cash about and this person is teasing you about or even promising lend/give you some of the money. This person is also quite drunk. If, when it came to the crunch, he or she decided against giving you even a penny, would that give you a justification/excuse/right/reason to rob them?

 

I didn't think so... it's the same with rape. No means no, no matter how much you feel like you've been 'led on'.

 

Lib1

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Originally posted by stars_gazing

I don't understand the whole comparison of a house left unlocked and burgled, to a woman dressing provocatively and raped. :suspect:

 

Surely, by saying these things you are claiming a woman no more than an object. That by dressing provocatively, she leaves herself "unlocked"?

 

Its an analogy nothing more. What is being said is that leaving your door unlocked is not asking to be burgled any more than (say) walking half naked down a dark back alley on your own while smashed out of your mind is asking to be raped however locking your door and going home with trused friends if you are drunk and incapable are both resonable precautions to take for your own safety.

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Originally posted by kathythebean

Evildrneil, the guy you're describing isn't typical at all of rapists, and wouldn't be pursued as a rapist through the courts, and wouldn't be convicted of rape. Women can (do) take all those precautions, and still are more likely to be raped inside their own home by someone they trust.

 

Yes I'm well aware of this (as you can see from my previous posts on the difference between perception and reality in this thread) I was responding to a particular point regarding a particular situation not to the general case...

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Originally posted by evildrneil

I'm afraid I find this point of view rather unrealistic. Lets take a (not particularly) hypothetical student night out - group of boys and girls go out to a nightclub and get fairly rat-arsed. Girl A returns home with boy B as his house is closer, they have a few more drinks on the sofa get somewhat amourous she says no when he tries to get his hands into her underwear but joint amourousness continues. Later they both fall into bed and despite girl A's earlier (and correctly responded to) no drunken unplanned sex happens. Now is this rape? If so who is responsible? Your argument implies that one party (at least) is sober enough to know whats happened rather than the much more common mutaul drunkeness.

 

As to your second post I'm afraid I think you have got the wrong end of the stick so badly that you are no longer anywhere near it! Reread the thread and you will see that people aren't 'nagging women to change their behaviour' but wanting women to be safe and suggesting some simple precautions to take. Women don't ask to be raped any more than people 'ask' to be mugged by using their mobile phone openly but no-one kicks up a fuss when crime prevention runs 'dont advertise your mobile to potential muggers' adverts...

 

Consent has to be given at the point immediately prior to the sexual act and for the duration of the act. Just because sexual activity has or hasn't taken place early in the evening doesn't mean that someone can't change their mind later. If someone is so drunk they are unable to give or withhold consent then sex should not take place. As I said earlier, in my book that is rape. I also agree with Kathy that men have to have a certain amount of sobriety to even perform the act, so there must be some level of consciousness there. However, my point is that most rapes do not occur when either party are so drunk they don't know what is happening. Most rapists know exactly what they are doing. I cannot believe for a moment that a man can possibly misunderstand when a woman really does not want sex. If you do have problems reading these signals then you need help.

 

As far as I'm concerned I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick at all with regard to the 'tips' being given to women on this thread - but maybe my thinking is too radical for you? It is just a wider sign of how society views rape. The tips are virtually pointless and help to reinforce the view that if women don't follow the 'advice' given then they are in some way responsible for being raped. Why is it that the people giving this advice are only focusing on female behaviour while completely ignoring male behaviour, when it is male behaviour that is the cause of rape? Everyone is spouting that rape is horrific, but most people refuse to admit what the real cause of the problem is and instead take the easier option of telling women what they should and shouldn't do. Maybe you're just not used to a woman actually standing up for herself and pointing out that this advice is pointless if we are going to continue to ignore the behaviour that is really at fault!

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Originally posted by t020

Yes, hence why I consistently use the term "stranger rape" - i.e. I'm referring to the other 40% of cases whereby various factors contribute to the likelihood of a rape taking place (walking home alone, being drunk, walking in secluded areas, wearing skimpy clothes, leaving drinks unattended, etc).

 

Actually only around 17% of rapes are by strangers. Around 55-60% of rapes are committed by the woman's partner or ex-partner. The rest are by other men already known to the woman.

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Originally posted by banesmabes

Consent has to be given at the point immediately prior to the sexual act and for the duration of the act. Just because sexual activity has or hasn't taken place early in the evening doesn't mean that someone can't change their mind later. If someone is so drunk they are unable to give or withhold consent then sex should not take place. As I said earlier, in my book that is rape. I also agree with Kathy that men have to have a certain amount of sobriety to even perform the act, so there must be some level of consciousness there.

 

Really? I've been told numerous time by numerous men how thay have been told that they have had intercourse with a woman when they can't remeber the events due to drink (in fact there is even an anecdotal version of this on this very thread) are these men lying?

 

However, my point is that most rapes do not occur when either party are so drunk they don't know what is happening.

 

Really? Do you have any evidence to back that up or is it personal bias?

 

Most rapists know exactly what they are doing.

 

yes because mostly it has nothing to do with drink, clothing, going out but occurs within relationships / friendhips etc. However that doesn't mean that taking resonable precautions when going out is a silly thing to do.

 

I cannot believe for a moment that a man can possibly misunderstand when a woman really does not want sex. If you do have problems reading these signals then you need help.

 

The inhibition reducing effect of alcohol (on both parties) is a wonderfull thing and if you can't see the effect it migh have then you are being a tad blinkered.

 

As far as I'm concerned I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick at all with regard to the 'tips' being given to women on this thread - but maybe my thinking is too radical for you?

 

I would have said to blinkered, preconcieved and narrow minded - but go ahead...

 

It is just a wider sign of how society views rape. The tips are virtually pointless and help to reinforce the view that if women don't follow the 'advice' given then they are in some way responsible for being raped.

 

Do they indeed - again any evidence for this? As far as I can see a set of tips for personal safety have been given. Whether you follow them or not is up to you of course and not following them does not imply that you are then responsible for being raped. I can't actually see anything in this thread from anyone claiming that women are in any way responsible for being raped if they do not take some simple and responsible self protection steps.

 

Why is it that the people giving this advice are only focusing on female behaviour while completely ignoring male behaviour, when it is male behaviour that is the cause of rape?

 

What are you going to say - don't go out and rape someone???? No-one has said that male behaviour isn't responsibvle for rape have they?

 

Everyone is spouting that rape is horrific, but most people refuse to admit what the real cause of the problem is and instead take the easier option of telling women what they should and shouldn't do.

 

Has anyone said that women are the cause of rape? No! This is obviously personal for you but you should try and read the thread with an open mind and not letting your preconceptions get int the way.

 

Yes men rape women however in the very rare cases where it happens in the street by a stranger is it unreasonable to suggest that women (and men for that matter but were talking about rape here which is predominantly a crime comitted against women) take a few simple precautions to help ensure their safety?

 

Maybe you're just not used to a woman actually standing up for herself and pointing out that this advice is pointless if we are going to continue to ignore the behaviour that is really at fault! [/b]

 

Oh dear my machismo has been impugned - I am cut to the quick. Please try reading the thread (oh and reading the actual report which most certainly DOESN'T say that 1/3rd believe flirtatious women 'ask' for rape) rather than simply applying your own prejiduces...

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Its seems to be the men on this thread that are suggesting that what women wear has some bearing on the likelihood of attack.

 

WHY is this? What does this tell us about men. That some men can imagine what other men are thinking. They empathise.

 

Some men can see an attractive skimpily dressed woman and be attracted to her. But seeing as they are men they can imagine how other men may not be able to control themselves.

 

Men view rape as a sexual act, therefore they think it has something to to with dress.

 

As others have said it is about power and control.

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Eee gads this is all getting a bit hectic.

 

Don't get bogged down in the nitty gritty of it though. I think, fundamentally, we all agree.

 

Also, I do agree with evildrneil that its a good idea to take precautions on a night out, not because I think you'll be raped, just because anything could happen to you! You're probably much more likely to be mugged for cash but no-one wants that either do they!

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Originally posted by evildrneil

I have pm'ed you on this reply - I don't take to being patronised easily. Just accept that there may be another way of interpreting what has been said on this thread rather than assuming that I have misunderstood.

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MOD: Can we please refrain from personal comments and try to appreciate each other's points of view? Thanks.

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why not set up a poll and find out what the results are from the cross section of people here.

I'll put £10 on the results being not at all similar to the ones in the survey, at least if we word the questions without slanting them to get the result we want, which is what appears to have been done.

 

"I refuse to modify my behaviour" - it's been said at least a couple of times.

 

Irrespective of the "perfect world" because we don't live in that one. What would you think if it were people refusing to lock their doors, not wave huge wads of cash around and not wear united shirts in hillsborough on match day who were refusing to change? Personally I'd have to wonder why they seemed to be going out of their way to get themselves into trouble.

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Originally posted by kathythebean

Eee gads this is all getting a bit hectic.

 

Quite!

 

It's unfortunate, but (as it seems to me) these things always boil down to some kind of battle between the sexes. People become agrieved for whatever reason(s), and a common tendency is to lump all members of the opposite sex together in to one group (all men are ***** etc).

 

Why does this happen? Perhaps I am just imagining it all ...

 

Advice about looking out for your own personal safety, is just that. It does not imply that women are to blame for being raped. We live in an amoral universe and to be responsible for ones own well being, is to me, paramount. People (well, some people) are only animals, and as such, we're capable of harming each other in a multitude of ways.

 

To my way of thinking, anticipating or expecting, that all other human beings (male or female) will act in a reasonable and fair way towards you, is foolish. You should always bear in mind that some people will have little or no qualms about harming you (to whatever degree), and put your own saftey first.

 

Now you can think 'well they should have respect for me' until you're blue in the face, but that will never change the facts of the matter.

 

Being able to defend yourself appropriately (bite his balls off if you have to), should be top priority.

 

Other than than, better education on the subject, perhaps in school?

 

Hmmmm, OK, I am wondering if what banesmabes is getting at is the following:

 

If we suggest that women should learn to defend themselves and reduce risk of rape by modification of their behaviour, doing these things are of course good, but by suggesting them, it kind of lets society / the establishment 'off the hook' when it comes to having appropriate mechanisms / punishments in place to disuade potential rapists.

 

That make sense?

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