Metro: One Third Believe Flirtatious Women 'Ask' for Rape

[banesmabes 10]

Originally posted by robbie

all I'm saying is that if you had 2 options

 

1. walk home smashed alone

 

2. walk in a group or a group in a cab

 

the 2nd one is clearly safer.

 

I realise thta most rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim know but some aren't. If people think about how they are going to get home ir arrange something and it saves one attack or rape then surely that is a good thing?

 

the only ways to stop rapists are to:

 

educate people more.

 

bang up rapsists for a long time and make sure they are completely reformed before they are let out

 

make sure people learn the meaning of respecting others.

 

make prosecuting rape cases easier and provide support for victims

 

I agree completely with your way to stop rapists and I believe they would be much more effective in preventing rapes than making sure you don't travel home alone (sometimes this is unavoidable). Stranger rape on the street is incredibly rare.

[JBee 10]

This really wound me up when I saw it on the news this morning.

 

I immediately thought back to a time when I used to go for a night out wearing a short skirt. I was a niave 15/16-year-old VIRGIN, having fun with my mates and enjoying dressing up in the lastest fashion - the a-line mini skirt. I probably got a bit tipsy too.

 

Was I asking to be raped? I think not.

 

I can see the point in advising women to be careful. It's only like advising someone to protect themselves from street robbery by not having their mobile phone on show. It's a sad fact of life that their are some monsterous men out there and women need to be vigilant.

 

But how can a woman EVER be held responsible for being raped? It's absoultely ridiculous and really really frightening that there are people in our society today who think that if a woman is wearing a short skirt, or has been flirtacious (heaven forbid!), then she is 'asking for it'.

 

Think about this in practical terms. We've all seen our mothers getting a bit tipsy after one too many glasses of wine. Did they deserve to be raped that night for their behaviour? We've all seen a kid sister or cousin go out with her pals wearing a teeny weeny skirt. Did she deserve to be raped that night? And we've all been out drinking with a friend who has spotted an attractive man at the bar, given him a few flirtacious glances, and then changed her mind/thought the better of it. Did she deserve to be raped that night?

 

How can we ever stop rape happening in our society while attitudes like this still exhist?

[Cyclone 10]

Originally posted by banesmabes

And is just passing the buck back to women in my opinion. This kind of 'advice' is all part of the problem of how rape is perceived in society. It is no better than believing that women are partly or wholly to blame for being raped in certain situations. It just passes the whole problem back to women to deal with, rather that looking at changing the attitudes that lead to such a high rate of rapes, and such an unbelievable acceptance of it as the 'norm' by much of society.

 

The approach that Robbie and Jamie is suggesting is a realistic one. You are arguing from a moral stance.

Whilst you are correct, women should not have to change their behaviour, the subset of men committing these offences should, you are burying your head in the sand if you think it's that easy.

 

Home owners shouldn't have to lock their doors, burglars should all stop burgling. But since we can't click our fingers and make that happen, i'll keep locking my door and setting my alarm.

 

Women shouldn't have to change their behaviour, but until the world becomes a perfect place they should continue to apply common sense and take some responsibility for their own safety, whilst continuing their efforts to change the behaviour and perceptions of men and rape.

[Jamie 10]

Originally posted by banesmabes

Even when the rapist is a stranger it should still not be up to women to change their behaviour. This is what any discussion on rape always decends to - what women should do to stop it happening. And then that leads back to the old idea that women are in some way to blame.

 

Women changing their behaviour, isn't the same as accepting that if they behave in a certain way, it makes them responsible for being raped.

 

I think it important to distinguish the two, between being aware of your own personal saftey, and taking appropriate steps to be safe, IS NOT THE SAME AS, being responsible or to blame for the actions of another person (in this case, rape by a man).

 

Originally posted by banesmabes

Preaching to women about taking precautions is the easy answer, but it is the wrong answer.

 

Preaching?! (common sense advice) is only one course of action, and should be complimented by the likes of better victim support, dealing with (as you point out) how rape is percieved and treated, more public awareness and better education etc.

 

It's not about passing the buck. It's about doing whatever possible to make life safer and better for us all, both individually, and as a culture.

[evildrneil 14]

At the risk of being flamed a couple of things to add to this debate:

 

1. I've spoken with quite a few female friends who believe that if they go out in thier best skimpy outfits hit on a man and take him to a certain point of excitement that if things go further then it isn't rape, so this 'women asking for it oppinion' isn't just a male thing.

 

2. Does some of the problem come about because of our odd view of sex - it does seem to have been devalued and viewed as a bit of light recreation rather than a meaningfull exchange. Does this devaluation of sex make it an easier thing to give and take?

 

3. On several occasions I've defelected the (very sexual) advances of not smashed out of their mind but certainly innebriated women - if I had acquiesced and gone along with their desires would you see me as a guilty parts as I was sober and taking advantage of a innebriated (though sober enough to actively ask for what they wanted) person?

 

4. If you go to a party get drunk and wake up next to the creature from the black lagoon not knowing how you got there could you call it rape as it wasn't seomthing that you would have consented to when sober?

 

My personal opinion is that in an ideal world no-one would take advantage of anyone else but we all know this is a less than ideal world and people (of all genders and persuasions) need to take some responsibility for their own wellbeing which I'm afraid includes not getting smashed out of your mind while wearing less material than you would find in an average handkerchief and giving impromptu lap dances (an exageration yes but I'm sure we have all seen drunken innapropriate behaviour) and then blaming someone who is probably equally out of it for getting the wrong end of the stick...

[banesmabes 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

Women changing their behaviour, isn't the same as accepting that if they behave in a certain way, it makes them responsible for being raped.

 

I think it important to distinguish the two, between being aware of your own personal saftey, and taking appropriate steps to be safe, IS NOT THE SAME AS, being responsible or to blame for the actions of another person (in this case, rape by a man).

 

 

 

I don't understand the difference I'm afraid. I have strong feelings on this because I have been raped myself. It was by someone I considered to be a friend. It was at his house, somewhere I had visited before. I had had a few drinks. He raped me. Under your advice I would not have drunk so much or gone to his house. But by advising me such it is implying that by drinking too much and going to his house I was partly responsible for being raped. But the alcohol did not rape me, his house did not rape me - he did. Since then I have not modified my own behaviour in any way. I refuse to let a rapist (or any potential rapist) dictate how I live my life. What are women meant to do? Go through life not having a drink when they want to? Not ever go to visit male friends? Not ever talk to a man in case he gets the wrong idea?

 

Cyclone - I understand that my approach is in an ideal world. I suppose what I am objecting to is that many of the posts thus far have been aimed solely at advising women on modifying our behaviour. I am pointing out that a discussion on rape always seems to descend to that as a solution, with little to no attention on the attackers. My main point is that this approach has it's priorities completely wrong and is simply a reflection on the wider views on rape in society. It is a reflection of the idea that women need to do something to prevent rape because they are usually in some way to blame.

[xafier 10]

Originally posted by evildrneil

2. Does some of the problem come about because of our odd view of sex - it does seem to have been devalued and viewed as a bit of light recreation rather than a meaningfull exchange. Does this devaluation of sex make it an easier thing to give and take?

 

I have to say that I personally see sex meaning less and less in terms of a love thing in generations, even my own... as a hot blooded male I will openly admit sometimes I see a damned attractive female and think "wow, if I only I could drag her home and "woo" her"... but the human and not animal side of me quickly negates such thinking... same as personally I don't go to clubs to "pull" or "get laid"... I've had opportunities throughout my University years to go home with some random drunk girl... but its not my thing... I'm one of the seemingly lately few guys that do believe in sex meaning at least a little something, I aint giving it away to just anyone thats for sure...

 

although, I do see a lot, and truthfully its acutually usually women that are going to people (male and female) your young, go out enjoy yourself and have fun... and they don't generally mean go to Alton Towers

 

Originally posted by evildrneil

3. On several occasions I've defelected the (very sexual) advances of not smashed out of their mind but certainly innebriated women - if I had acquiesced and gone along with their desires would you see me as a guilty parts as I was sober and taking advantage of a innebriated (though sober enough to actively ask for what they wanted) person?

 

4. If you go to a party get drunk and wake up next to the creature from the black lagoon not knowing how you got there could you call it rape as it wasn't seomthing that you would have consented to when sober?

 

I think this sums up most of a students University life doesn't it... typically its, go out, get drunk, get laid... either brag about your achievements, or cringe and deny all knowledge to your friends about the man/woman you took home last night...

[slimsid2000 10]

I don't believe anyone 'asks' for rape and quite frankly there is no excuse for it. There is a danger with attitudes like that there will be sympathy with the criminal rather than the victim which is just wrong.

[Jamie 10]

Originally posted by banesmabes

I don't understand the difference I'm afraid. I have strong feelings on this because I have been raped myself. It was by someone I considered to be a friend. It was at his house, somewhere I had visited before. I had had a few drinks. He raped me. Under your advice I would not have drunk so much or gone to his house. But by advising me such it is implying that by drinking too much and going to his house I was partly responsible for being raped. But the alcohol did not rape me, his house did not rape me - he did. Since then I have not modified my own behaviour in any way. I refuse to let a rapist (or any potential rapist) dictate how I live my life. What are women meant to do? Go through life not having a drink when they want to? Not ever go to visit male friends? Not ever talk to a man in case he gets the wrong idea?

 

I am very sorry to hear that, I mean that you were raped banesmabes.

 

Please understand, what I'm saying does not mean, and I certainly do not mean to imply, that you (or anyone else being raped) are in any way to blame for it happening.

 

It is a vile, cowardly and disgusting thing for a man to do to a woman. It's totally low, that people can treat other people in such a way.

 

Being aware, and on the look out for the warning signals (that you're in an unsafe situation), listening to your gut instinct, and then modifying your behaviour, so that you stay safer. All that (as I see it) has nothing to do with who's to blame.

 

However, I have never been in your situation banesmabes, so please bear with me if I sound a little too pragmatic. I will say it again though, any man who forces himself on you, against your own will, is to blame, not you.

[xafier 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

I will say it again though, any man who forces himself on you, against your own will, is to blame, not you.

 

you missed out the bit where he deserves to be painfully tortured on his genitals by any and all women he ever raped with various sharp and blunt instruments causing maximum discomfort for him... thats the LEAST i'd demand of any man that would dare rape any of my friends or family!

[banesmabes 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

Being aware, and on the look out for the warning signals (that you're in an unsafe situation), listening to your gut instinct, and then modifying your behaviour, so that you stay safer. All that (as I see it) has nothing to do with who's to blame.

 

However, I have never been in your situation banesmabes, so please bear with me if I sound a little too pragmatic. I will say it again though, any man who forces himself on you, against your own will, is to blame, not you.

 

This is how I think my experience is a good example - because what would have been the 'warning signs'? I think most rapes occur in similar situations to that I describe, in situations where the woman feels safe, and not in the kind of situations that most people assume they happen. Telling women to modify their behaviour in the stereotypical situations where society believes rape occurs will not actually prevent the vast majority of rapes. I'm not getting at you personally Jamie, I am just trying to get people to see that we need to tackle to real problem here - and that problem is nothing to do with women's behaviour.

[floyd77 10]

Originally posted by Jamie

I am very sorry to hear that, I mean that you were raped banesmabes.

 

Please understand, what I'm saying does not mean, and I certainly do not mean to imply, that you (or anyone else being raped) are in any way to blame for it happening.

 

It is a vile, cowardly and disgusting thing for a man to do to a woman. It's totally low, that people can treat other people in such a way.

 

Being aware, and on the look out for the warning signals (that you're in an unsafe situation), listening to your gut instinct, and then modifying your behaviour, so that you stay safer. All that (as I see it) has nothing to do with who's to blame.

 

However, I have never been in your situation banesmabes, so please bear with me if I sound a little too pragmatic. I will say it again though, any man who forces himself on you, against your own will, is to blame, not you.

 

Just my tuppence - I agree with what I think you are saying here, that there is a difference between looking out for yourself and being in any way to blame.

 

In the same vein (but vastly different) that you shouldnt be blamed for your car being stolen just because you didnt lock it. The fact is if your car is unlocked, its more likely to be stolen.

 

Banesmabe is right to feel like she shouldnt have to adjust her behaviour when she's out, and even if she did it wouldnt be a foolproof method of protection as everyone has agreed you never know who your attacker may be - you may feel comfortable with them. No one can knock your opinion that you should be able to do what you please without fear of being raped, and I doubt anyone would disagree - the problem is how, or can our society get to that stage - I think there will always be 'bad eggs' who will take advantage of women and I dont see a simple solution as no-one can tell they're a rapist until they do it - so yes, looking out for yourself is a good idea while still a terrible thing to have to do - and in no way should that be related to blaming the victim.

 

Hope that all made sense.