Daven   10 #25 Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) I have recently agreed for a DNAR order to be attached to my Mums notes - she has Alzheimers disease and has had several strokes. To resuscitate her would be cruel and undignified. As a medical professional, I don't believe that most of the general public understand what 'resuscitation' means - a very aggressive, invasive, messy and undignified event which I would not dream of putting my elderly and much loved Mum through. I can understand why relatives wish their loved ones to be resuscitated - but it is not always in the patients best interests. I believe that families should question their motives for denying their loved one of a dignified and peaceful death. Kashul - I hope you are able to resolve your difficulties. Edited February 14, 2011 by Daven Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Darth Vader   10 #26 Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) Interesting choice of words, Daven. Whilst one of my relatives was trying to resuscitate my other, and we were all screaming for the crash team to be sent, the nurse felt instead, she would stand over proceedings shouting, 'let her die with some dignity, let her die with some dignity' - even though we'd never seen this nurse before and we'd been by her bed side for 7 days and nights. Of course, she must have been able to see the bigger picture clearer than us.  I don't see much dignity being allowed here:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8324569/NHS-shamed-over-callous-treatment-of-elderly.html   EDIT - I do actually appreciate what you're saying, but in our case, it was clear to us, that although elderly, our relative still wanted to do everything to hold on to life, and still had so much to live for, unlike many of the assumptions we met by medical staff. Edited February 15, 2011 by Darth Vader Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
sccsux   10 #27 Posted February 14, 2011 Discuss.  Let's not.  Let's leave this thread for the OP's original intention of getting help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
AGB1 Â Â 10 #28 Posted February 15, 2011 EDIT - I do actually appreciate what you're saying, but in our case, it was clear to us, that although elderly, our relative still wanted to do everything to hold on to life, and still had so much to live for, unlike many of the assumptions we met by medical staff. Â I feel inclined to make a few comments. This is from someone who has been a member of the 'crash team' and who has attempted 100's maybe even 1000's of resuscitations. Â First point - hardly anyone survives a cradiac arrest in hospital. If you're young, relatively fit and have one of a few 'reversible' conditions then the odds are slightly better. If you're old, have comorbidities and your heart has stopped then the chances of you leaving hospital and having any quality of life are miniscule. Doctors know these odds. From experience this is how they put in place DNAR orders. Â Second point - when the 'arrest' team arrives, your relative will be on the bed/floor stripped naked in front of strangers. People will be attempting to put tubes into their windpipe, people will be attempting to put large needles into their arms/feet and probably groin. Someone will be putting their weight into your relative's chest - good CPR always breaks ribs and sometimes the sternum ( breastbone). The patient often vomits and may soil themselves during this process which will last 20 minutes or so until we stop. The nurses then come along as we all trundle off to see the devastation we have left. There is no dignity in this. The dignity comes from people being made comfortable, people having their families close by and knowing that they wont be subjected to the terror above. Everyone has to die, this is a much more dignified way to die. This is why DNAR forms are used. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Daven   10 #29 Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) I feel inclined to make a few comments. This is from someone who has been a member of the 'crash team' and who has attempted 100's maybe even 1000's of resuscitations.  First point - hardly anyone survives a cradiac arrest in hospital. If you're young, relatively fit and have one of a few 'reversible' conditions then the odds are slightly better. If you're old, have comorbidities and your heart has stopped then the chances of you leaving hospital and having any quality of life are miniscule. Doctors know these odds. From experience this is how they put in place DNAR orders.  Second point - when the 'arrest' team arrives, your relative will be on the bed/floor stripped naked in front of strangers. People will be attempting to put tubes into their windpipe, people will be attempting to put large needles into their arms/feet and probably groin. Someone will be putting their weight into your relative's chest - good CPR always breaks ribs and sometimes the sternum ( breastbone). The patient often vomits and may soil themselves during this process which will last 20 minutes or so until we stop. The nurses then come along as we all trundle off to see the devastation we have left. There is no dignity in this. The dignity comes from people being made comfortable, people having their families close by and knowing that they wont be subjected to the terror above. Everyone has to die, this is a much more dignified way to die. This is why DNAR forms are used.  You have said exactly what I was trying to. You have explained very well what happens in a cardiac arrest situation. The romantic idea of resuscitation being performed and the patient responding and asking for a cup of tea just doesn't happen. Having also been present and involved in very many 'crash' calls over the 30 or more years of being a qualified nurse - I can only recall a handful where the patient has survived. There is no dignity in having your loved one put through the necessary aggressive and invasive action which is resuscitation. Everyone has their opinions and motives for demanding that doctors do what they believe is 'best' for their loved one - but I. for one, would not which a loved one of mine being put through this indignity and trauma if it was thought by the professionals that any attempt would be futile. This is my opinion. which I am entitled to, and in no way affects my professional practice. Edited February 15, 2011 by Daven Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Darth Vader   10 #30 Posted February 17, 2011 Thanks for the informative comments, AGB1, Daven.  I hope it doesn't happen to any relative of yours, but you might feel differently, as it's happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
island3rlara   10 #31 Posted May 21, 2011 (edited) Frankly if anyone was shouting that near a family member of mine, they would be hearing it ring between their dying ears!! So easy for medical staff to choose death over life. I don't hear the patients who beg for death receiving it in court of law! Where the hell do doctors get off? It has to be said. Whether you are a medic to some above, I'd like to hope it's patients choice but I doubt it is in most cases. Doctors let patients die. Hospitals feed sick people rubbish food. My opinion may seem extreme but which is the reality? I'm not sorry some here think my opinion doesn't fit this thread! but I feel what I have to say is pro-life and supports the OP. Edited May 21, 2011 by island3rlara missed word Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Hello/Goodby   10 #32 Posted May 22, 2011 Some information here: I suggest that if you have a disagreement with doctors who are traeting either you or a loved one, you contact the hospital PALS wo will help you in your communication with the medics.  On the BBC site it states from the above post,  Proper use of DNRs  Guidelines issued by the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing say that DNR orders should only be issued after discussion with patients or their family.  My Mother was in the Northern General a few years ago and it was only when a member of my family picked up her medical notes attached to the bed did we see the words, ' DNR' 'In the event of a cardiac arrest do not resuscitate' I was appalled that the Consultant had not discussed this with my Father and the family and made the decision by himself and not even my Mother.  I made an appointment to see the Consultant and they said it was in my Mother's interest. They could have told us and to find it on her notes was very upsetting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
island3rlara   10 #33 Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) On the BBC site it states from the above post, Proper use of DNRs  Guidelines issued by the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing say that DNR orders should only be issued after discussion with patients or their family.  My Mother was in the Northern General a few years ago and it was only when a member of my family picked up her medical notes attached to the bed did we see the words, ' DNR' 'In the event of a cardiac arrest do not resuscitate' I was appalled that the Consultant had not discussed this with my Father and the family and made the decision by himself and not even my Mother.  I made an appointment to see the Consultant and they said it was in my Mother's interest. They could have told us and to find it on her notes was very upsetting.  Exactly.... Edited May 23, 2011 by esme quote tags Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
sumayyah   10 #34 Posted May 22, 2011 my daughter had a dnr order placed on her at 5 months old. i was told of the decision but wasnt asked my opinion. shes one of the lucky ones, she did make it through the next year and the order has since been removed  but i do understand where the doctors were coming from, she was desperatly ill, on machines and several times they came close to losing her, when they looked at old cases similar to her the outcomes just wernt good Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...