Benefit Changes a big mistake

[Wildcat 10]

You have no idea what a miserable hash ATOS are making of the assessments, or the levels of misery and stress that many sick and disabled people are going through as a result. The assessors are making rushed decisions they're not competent or qualified to make, the inappropriate types of work they're being expected to do often aggravates the conditions they were signed off for in the first place. There is precious little support for people with many kinds of special needs in the workplace, ignorance and bullying are common in relation to many conditions, especially the ones not immediately visible. Mental illness is particularly ill served by the tickbox assessment on top of the mental health service being next to non-existent in real terms anyway.

 

There have been forummers who have tried to highlight what's going on before, but the thread usually falls off the page because frankly most people don't give a toss. The government - not just this one, labour set up the ATOS fiasco - are cracking down not on the stereotypical cheats that the SF tabloid propagandists claim are the norm, but people who are the most vulnerable in society with the lowest level of help and support in a crisis. And it's going to get much worse. And that's not even starting on the new ESA rules for those with partners, that'll be a whole new mess to look forward to.

 

The genuinely sick and disabled are being deliberately targeted, and there is a concerted campaign to include them in the 'scrounging lazy scum' bracket and many people are falling for it. I really believe that the hope is they'll be pushed into dying or committing suicide to save the taxpayer money. Everyone's got to take a share of the brunt but the highest proportion of brunt is right at the bottom where there's nowhere left to go and people are least able to keep going or find alternatives. As far as I can see, that's seen as acceptable not just by 'evil tories' but most ordinary people too.

 

With the removal of discretion and removal of a right of appeal against sanction, the system being introduced appears to be intended to be as unfair as possible.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jobless-who-refuse-work-will-lose-benefits-for-up-to-three-years-2130868.html

 

As you say the disabled and carers will be badly affected, it goes beyond even what I thought the Tories intentionally capable of.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Wildcat

[chem1st 10]

You really really really do not know the kinds of incapacities that are being deemed 'fit' by people who are not qualified to make that assessment and do not have enough time to make those judgements. People are being shoved into the 'scrounging scum' category according to tickboxes and quotas, not by their genuine needs, abilities and limitations. There isn't even an adequate health service or support service for many thousands of people who have serious, complex and incurable conditions, unpredictable in their occurrence and genuinely debilitating. This has been posted about many times before, there's no excuse for being ignorant about what's going on.

 

There is going to be enough pressure on jobs, the pressure to take any job will be bad enough for those who are in A1 health. For those who have complex and particular needs, how are they going to find tailor made jobs that make allowances for conditions which most people are ignorant of and hostile to anyway? If people get debilitated by their conditions at regular intervals, have to take extra time off, etc, who is going to be understanding of their needs? They will just be scapegoated even more than they have been up to now.

 

This is not about maths, or about being numerically better off on benefits. I'm not talking about people who don't want to work but who can't work, in real terms. Or who maybe want to try to work but fear the detrimental impact on their already damaged health.

 

Your post is alarming because you're eliding the supposed 'feckless' with who I am referring to, who are among the most vulnerable and ill-served by health and social services already. Do you not find the ATOS fiasco a scandal? Why have you totally ignored the points I made in my posts which are the reality for many thousands? Why are you so wilfully ignorant of what constitutes an incapacitating health problem and how things affect people's ability to hold a job, and how already desperate people are being hounded into becoming even sicker or eventually dying altogether?

 

Why are people not outraged about this, unless they really do think that disabled people are scum who should be punished if not eliminated? You can judge a society by how it treats the most vulnerable, and this country has been showing its true colours since 'Care in the Community' began. As far as I can see the malicious targetting of the genuine sick and disabled is with the will of the people, not just the government. Or at least the people on Sheffield Forum. This is not about maths but morality.

 

Demographic changes are taking place, we have less workers and even more non workers due to the working age, age range.

We can ill afford to maintain current lifestyles. We are going to have to tax the young even more than we ever have done to get by. These people are getting angry about it, and you can't blame them.

 

It is entirely about maths, and morality.

 

We have many scamming the system, bad backs in the past and depression today. Granted these people need help, but it has to be cost effective in the long term. ATOS is a a bit f a fiasco, it is by no means perfect, but the rationale is not that bad.

 

If you can work, you should work. However, we do need to have a system that rewards work.

 

We cannot afford to pay somebody £90 income support, £95 housing benefit, £15 council tax benefit, £70 DLA, give them a bus pass and the rest, whilst the people paying for that are earning £237.20, paying full rent, council tax and travel.

 

We need to cut the disability benefit down to £65 like 25+ JSA, maybe force people into sheltered accommodation, where their needs can be better met, take from them the bus pass when they get a mobility DLA component.

 

To somewhere in the region of £200 a week NET. (NHS costs aside for medication and operations).

 

And you know what, they should be grateful. Even if they aren't the one scamming the system, they don't deserve to be treat better than the workers whom are supporting them.

 

The disabled aren't going to have it as cushty as they have, the ones masquerading are going to be punished, and so they should.

[max 13]

Demographic changes are taking place, we have less workers and even more non workers due to the working age, age range.

We can ill afford to maintain current lifestyles. We are going to have to tax the young even more than we ever have done to get by. These people are getting angry about it, and you can't blame them.

 

It is entirely about maths, and morality.

 

We have many scamming the system, bad backs in the past and depression today. Granted these people need help, but it has to be cost effective in the long term. ATOS is a a bit f a fiasco, it is by no means perfect, but the rationale is not that bad.

 

If you can work, you should work. However, we do need to have a system that rewards work.

 

We cannot afford to pay somebody £90 income support, £95 housing benefit, £15 council tax benefit, £70 DLA, give them a bus pass and the rest, whilst the people paying for that are earning £237.20, paying full rent, council tax and travel.

 

We need to cut the disability benefit down to £65 like 25+ JSA, maybe force people into sheltered accommodation, where their needs can be better met, take from them the bus pass when they get a mobility DLA component.

 

To somewhere in the region of £200 a week NET. (NHS costs aside for medication and operations).

 

And you know what, they should be grateful. Even if they aren't the one scamming the system, they don't deserve to be treat better than the workers whom are supporting them.

 

The disabled aren't going to have it as cushty as they have, the ones masquerading are going to be punished, and so they should.

 

Pretty much everything you say is right except when it comes to where the blame lies. The real culprits are employers who do not pay a living wage. If all the figures you quoted are the sums needed to live a worthwhile life then employers should ensure they pay a wage such that people are better off working.

 

Any other solution means we, the taxpayer, are subsidising the employers and ultimately the shareholders.

[Wildcat 10]

Demographic changes are taking place, we have less workers and even more non workers due to the working age, age range.

We can ill afford to maintain current lifestyles. We are going to have to tax the young even more than we ever have done to get by. These people are getting angry about it, and you can't blame them.

 

...............

 

The disabled aren't going to have it as cushty as they have, the ones masquerading are going to be punished, and so they should.

 

The ruling classes point at a target and some are stupid enough to go pin the blame on wherever their finger points...

 

It is divide and rule and we are worse as a society for having people cruel and stupid enough to not see what is going on.

[chem1st 10]

Pretty much everything you say is right except when it comes to where the blame lies. The real culprits are employers who do not pay a living wage. If all the figures you quoted are the sums needed to live a worthwhile life then employers should ensure they pay a wage such that people are better off working.

 

Any other solution means we, the taxpayer, are subsidising the employers and ultimately the shareholders.

 

The only way to solve that problem is to have progressive taxation.

 

A 77% tax rate for incomes over £1million PA would be a start.

[chem1st 10]

The ruling classes point at a target and some are stupid enough to go pin the blame on wherever their finger points...

 

It is divide and rule and we are worse as a society for having people cruel and stupid enough to not see what is going on.

 

They are not going to give up their wealth without a fight, nor are the poor, but the situation remains, were all going to be a bit worse off for a few years.

 

Disability benefits shouldn't be higher than a 40 hour week at minimum wage IMO.

 

Minimum wage is lower than it should be and we don't have a maximum wage yet to ensure there is a limit to how much exploitation is allowed of the lowest paid.

 

The disabled don't have that much to worry about, tis the immigrants that should worry, they are going to get blamed, they will be discriminated against and some may even be beaten to death, they'll probably have a pop back and we all know how tit for tat ends, not very well for the minority.

[eastbank 10]

Just been watching the news and it's an interesting choice what the government have made regarding benefits.

A couple of things, forcing people into work is not going to work stopping peoples benefits will make them even closer to the breadline and not everyone are qualified for the jobs available, the job centre is struggling to make jobs available so that for a start is going to bring serious troubles to our country.

There will be thousands who have there benefit stopped who will not take work, what are these people going to do sit and starve or use whatever means possible to feed themselves.

It's going to be very interesting to see the crime stats in the next few months.

Not only that people who are entitled to benefits are also having to go on silly courses which are not effective as most just think is it worth it for £110 a fortnight.

Another thing which has happened with families which i think could cause serious reprucussions is making people go onto fortnightly payments when its quite obvious people are struggling with weekly payments.

Obviously benefits are needed and there even trying to take people with serious health problems off incapacity benefit.

I do feel as though this could end up being a bit of a mess up from the government once the cuts start kicking in as there are going to be hundreds of thousands of people in poverty.

 

 

what shall we do then...all plonk on....and let the country sink....or should some of us work to keep those in the custom that they have been used to over the past 13 years....

too many people in this country....feel we all owe them a living...for doing nowt....

mind you some of our lads who are going to benidorm....travel along the M62 every morning to earn a crust in hull...cos not much doing here...

or should they join the great unwashed and become a student..

[fierysatsuma 10]

I appreciate that there are clearly some issues regarding the new system, however, it is so wrong, on every level, that someone should be 'better off' claiming benefits over working. I welcome anyone on benefits to (attempt) to reasonably argue their right to get more benefits than a typical working person/family.

[chem1st 10]

I appreciate that there are clearly some issues regarding the new system, however, it is so wrong, on every level, that someone should be 'better off' claiming benefits over working. I welcome anyone on benefits to (attempt) to reasonably argue their right to get more benefits than a typical working person/family.

 

You tend to get that from the disabled.

 

The others complain that working doesn't pay, hence they claim and work cash in hand where possible. - You can't really blame them.

 

If we had nationalised transport, it would be very hard to be worse of on benefits, but still possible for a small amount of people.

[TeaFan 10]

JSA will be stopped if there is no effort to find work. The Incap issue is for people to be reassesed I think the point is that although someone has a health condition and may not be fit for some work, they may be fit for other types of work. I don't think people with serious health issues are going to be forced off benefit.

 

People with serious issues have already been forced off IB/ESA. Where have you been? I know several myself, there are loads of them. They've just been forced on to JSA to save money, they're no way well enough to work. It's already happening, you need to realise what's actually going on.

[discodown 11]

The problems are many and complicated but the crux of the matter is this.

 

Since the 80's (especially in the north) when the traditional industries were removed and disbanded there were many families comprised of people who couldn't, wouldn't and weren't offered the opportunity to retrain and re-enter the work place in any meaningful way. These people through no real fault of their own found themselves on benefits and unable or unwilling to get back off them. They had families of their own who grew up on benefits and these offspring are now having their own offspring who have known almost nothing but surviving on benefits.

 

Governments made it easy for them to live on benefits and Labour made it very easy because times were good and there was plenty for everyone and nobody really noticed these people because in general, they were a bit noisy but basically harmless and went about their day.

 

Now the good times are over, its time to pay the piper so as a nation we need to cut our cloth accordingly. Who do we look to? The people who seem to be doing least and getting something for nothing from the rest of us. Thats right the "underclass" as they are now known.

 

What we're really talking about here aren't the people who have lost their job and need a hand for a while (that may stretch for quite a while, over a year is not unusual) but the people who have been on benefits seemingly forever. The very long term unemployed who seem unwilling to work. The second or third generation households where nobody works and nobody has worked. the people who are feigning illness to not work. The youths who haven't worked since school. The ones who play the system. The large families who seem to have kids to get a "pay rise".

 

Sadly in targeting them the sick, the disabled, the mentally ill, single parents, the elderly and pretty much anyone else who claims a benefit all get dragged in and so the many suffers for the actions of the few.

 

Is it fair? Of course not. Is it unreasonable? Depends on your point of view. Is it necassary? Probably. Will it be done properly? Who knows. Will it benefit us as a society? Maybe.

 

If it means that people are brought into society and a working environment in the right way then its hard to condemn it. If its a means to pick on vulnerable members of society then its hard to condone it. Something does need to be done so its somewhat radical to try to do something. If Labour had done it I wonder if it would be so reviled? Possibly because people generally mistrust the tories that they automatically think its going to be a bad thing. All in all society must speak if it doesn't approve. Governments should be there for its people not to oppress them

[melthebell 863]

What do you suggest? You can bash the politicians all day long but I don't see you with any better ideas.

 

You just upset you're going to have to find a job or what?

 

when you get mugged and murdered for your cash and mobile dont come running to us

the crime rates gonna soar if people get their income cut off for 3 years