Enlightenment, the topic of

[StarSparkle 10]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

Would that not constitute enlightenment? All truths becoming self evident, everywhere at once?

 

To my way of thinking, the above would be an intrinsic part of Enlightenment. Everything throughout Eternity - in the past, present, future (assuming those are in any way meaningful concepts to a Soul) - becomes known to a Soul as it reaches Enlightenment.

 

Enlightenment by its very nature would involve a state of awareness that could be described as 'all-seeing, all-knowing'?

 

The Oneness with God.

 

Hope I'm still making sense!

 

Anyway, congratulations on posting a fascinating topic, Phan - it's good to be able to discuss deep, meaningful subjects that you can really get your teeth into

 

StarSparkle

[Jamie 10]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

I note the tao-ist sympathisers - by their absence. How apt. In some ways, talking about and discussing 'enlightenment' is the best way to try and obfuscate it.

 

*smiles*

 

I think words just confuse the issue Phan.

 

I know whenever I try to explain my own insights, as soon as I utter a single word, the real essense of what I'm trying to communicate is distorted or lost.

 

Words are also the tools of the intellect, not that I have anything against the intellect, it can be a beautiful thing. It's just that some things are for feeling, not thinking.

 

Further more, and I'm sure you more than appreciate this, words have different connotations and meanings to different people.

 

I was once sitting next to a buddist monk in Sri-Lanka, and the warmth and intensity of the energy he radiated was ...

 

... behond words.

 

As OB1 says "let go luke, use the force", perhaps enlightenment is about letting go of our mental constructs and just feeling; feeling what's inside you and what's in the world around you. Perhaps feeling it to be one in the same.

 

*tuts*

 

Now look what you've done! You've got my poor little mind thinking about enlightenment, my attention focused on defining it, or even thinking about it. In such a state one can never find it.

 

The best way to find some things, is to stop looking for them.

 

*smiles once again*

[Phanerothyme 12]

Originally posted by StarSparkle

To my way of thinking, the above would be an intrinsic part of Enlightenment. Everything throughout Eternity - in the past, present, future

 

Now that is certainly an extension of what I had in mind - which was a complete gestalt understanding of whatever one chose to focus one's attention upon. That, I suppose what we could call 'rational enlightenment'.

 

But I think that 'rational enlightenment' is still mundane. It's a mental leap that reconciles the previously irreconcilable, or intuits a relationship between sets of data. The simple act of learning, reading, and articulating is a continuous series of mental leaps, only much smaller.

 

The big mental leap or sudden inspirations are manifestations of the same mechanism, except they are great leaps supported by deep understanding and great knowledge in most cases. In other cases, the inspiration came from a dream (benzene), but this too can be attributed to great knowledge and understanding (and an almost fanatical devotion to solving a problem).

 

Mundane, but essential, enlightenment. However, this kind of enlightenment has a cold logic to it that I find a little spine chilling. All forms of enlightenment short of actually being a deity must, IMO, have some form of intrinsic morality that is obvious and self evident. To me, the moral foundation of rational enlightenment is the pursuit of knowledge.

 

There is nothing postulated in science that precludes knowledge of the future or the past, but it has so far proved largely impossible to do so on a useful scale (if at all). The past is in the text, and the future is determinable to a certain extent, providing you are looking at something fairly simple and large (like a planet).

 

On the numinous or spiritual side, your description of enlightenment transcends knowledge and time. At that point something fairly radical must happen, both in your mind, and to your body. I would imagine that your corporeal self would be pretty much redundant, which poses the question of what remains of you, human being-wise, after this ascension to god head? It sounds pretty final!

[Phanerothyme 12]

Originally posted by Jamie

*smiles*

 

I think words just confuse the issue Phan.

 

 

perhaps enlightenment is about letting go of our mental constructs and just feeling; feeling what's inside you and what's in the world around you. Perhaps feeling it to be one in the same.

 

You see, I don't think that is confusing at all. And I know you recognise the importance of intellect, in being able to transmit and instruct others in the achievement of enlightenment. And language too.

 

I think this is enlightenment, because whilst we can talk about it, actually experiencing the full weight of that truth would put you to a path of non-violent service to others. Enlightened self interest! Which if applied universally would lead to some really good results all round.

[back2basics 10]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

Is there a way that this can be grasped as a kind of gestalt, in its totality, rather than one little atomic fact at a time?

 

Perhaps, in the domain of science, enlightenment is the equivalent of inspiration or the "Eureka Moment" -when you engage with the problem or observation in an entirely different way - and from that enlightenment unfolds a solution to the problem, or a complex description of natural phenomena?

 

Given that this has certainly happened often in scientific history, from the theory of displacement (allegedly) and the structure of the benzene molecule to invention of the laser and alternating current, could this state of inspiration not be sustained instead of just happening in a flash, as it seems to commonly do.

 

Would that not constitute enlightenment? All truths becoming self evident, everywhere at once?

 

To extend your join-the-dots illustration, it would enable you to see the rich oil painting from which the sparse, dotted outline is derived.

 

Now that would be pretty good enlightenment. Not sure how I would rank it against being at one with god, sounds pretty similar to me.

 

Well that is the more spiritual version, all at once a sudden moment of enlightenment. I guess that ties back in to your thread about DMT. Many people have had these moments of enlightenment on hallucinogens (many have written down their thoughts and not been able to understand what the hell they were talking about the next day ).

 

The light bulb moment is not exactly what I was getting at. It's more about consciousness. If you do not understand a principal, you will overlook anything connected to that principal, and you miss a whole section of the bigger picture.

 

A hobby of mine is Psychology, and knowing a little about body language opens up a whole new way of looking at the world an interactions. Some basic principals can open up a whole new way of looking at the world. How people project themselves on to you or others etc.

 

Now imagine how Einstein viewed the world. Or Fraud, there view on the World would have been enlightened in their own field. Not always correct, but how would one know any form of enlightenment is correct?

 

The brain is a series of pathways, as we learn more our brain as a self organizing system reorganizes and joins the pathways. So we may have learnt something, our brain will also make the connections that are also related to that. That is the "eureka moment" where the light bulb goes on as our subconscious makes a connection and tells our conscious brain about it. Each connection makes us more conscious of the outside world and is (in my view) a step on the path to enlightenment.

[Phanerothyme 12]

This was a good thread. We've got another 33,000 members since it was first posted - any advances on the understanding of enlightenment?

[Phanerothyme 12]

I guess not

[StarSparkle 10]

I guess not

 

It's a very different forum these days, Phan Sadly

 

StarSparkle

[pk014b7161 11]

we are all on a journey i will be on one later to the belle vue hotel

[Jessica23 10]

It's a very different forum these days, Phan Sadly

 

StarSparkle

 

I read the thread with interest, but I didn't think I had anything much to contribute beyond what had been said already. I might have taken slight issue () with some of timo's more sweeping analyses, but I understand he's not around anymore, so it seemed fairly pointless...

 

StarSparkle - apologies for off-topicness - but I was listening to the song in your signature only the other day and thinking how marvellous it is

 

Anyway, enlightenment. I've only ever considered it in either the historical, Age of the Enlightenment way, or in the consciousness-expanding, hallucinogenic way. I was reading Dr. Susan Blackmore only the other day on this very issue, although I've just Wiki'd her and apparently she's been a psychologist on Big Brother so my opinion has just plummeted

[StarSparkle 10]

I read the thread with interest, but I didn't think I had anything much to contribute beyond what had been said already. I might have taken slight issue () with some of timo's more sweeping analyses, but I understand he's not around anymore, so it seemed fairly pointless...

 

StarSparkle - apologies for off-topicness - but I was listening to the song in your signature only the other day and thinking how marvellous it is

 

Anyway, enlightenment. I've only ever considered it in either the historical, Age of the Enlightenment way, or in the consciousness-expanding, hallucinogenic way. I was reading Dr. Susan Blackmore only the other day on this very issue, although I've just Wiki'd her and apparently she's been a psychologist on Big Brother so my opinion has just plummeted

 

Oh cheers, hun - it is an utterly beautiful song, isn't it?

 

It's always been one of my very favourites - one of those rare songs where both the melody and the lyrics come together to have the hairs rising on the back on your neck.

 

I read the other day that it was partly a tribute to the author CS Lewis - whose work I have loved and adored since I was a child. I reckon the lines from the song I chose for my signature are especially relevant to the writings of the great man.

 

And, of course, a man whose writings are central to the concept of this thread - what a happy co-incidence!...

 

StarSparkle

[Lotusflower 10]

My Master once told me this. "Enlightenment is the reward for watching yourself in action.

This is what you must do...You need to watch yourself like a hawk.

This watching can be understood as observing all three dimensions of yourself in action. The physical, emotional and mental dimensions. Your job is to watch these three dimensions of yourself as you go through life.

That's it! That is your job!

Be AWARE of whatsoever you are doing, feeling and thinking as best you can."

 

Sitting silently, doing nothing. Suddenly...a stream comes and the grass grows by itself.

 

Blessings.