Sheffield UFO incident, March 24 1997, we may have proof??

[maxwell1 10]

eh up maxwell, my 'no no no' is the basic sceptical approach, not an attack on your belief or on you personally, but you seem to get angry at my scepticism.

 

Frank, howdy on this fine Saturday afternoon. Also Sissyphus I didn’t know you have been following the case for a number of years. Tell us how you heard or came across the incident if you would be so kind.

 

Frank, its certainly not a belief or part of some belief system noting some kind of religion. I have been investigating the case based on the evidence. That is all.

 

being of military rank, senior or junior, does not imply a heightened state of rationality - possibly quite the opposite, the senior ranks of armies tend to be religious in one way or another, they are more likely to believe in gods angels afterlifes etc

 

If you say that we cannot trust professional observers and senior military people, and civilian observers based on what they say they have observed. Then exactly who’s observances are we going to give some weight too?

You seem to have excluded all aspects of society. To reach your conclusion that everyone is wrong as you say they dont exist. That is not logical.

 

Of course you could just say, NO NO NO you didn’t see that as I say they dont exist I dont care what thousands of people have seen around the world they must be all seeing things as I know best and I say they

dont exist that’s what you sound like Frank my dear boy.

 

than the average and , from my point of view, those beliefs are irrational. In WW2, airmen genuinely believed in 'gremlins' because that was what they feared, outside forces they didn't understand would kill them and they invented a personification of them to make them real.

 

Frank we are not talking about any of those things but actually during the second world war the FOO FIGHTERS were photographed and observed by thousands of air crew on both sides.

 

perhaps that's how people think, so the fact that electronic anomolies on radars was interpreted as 'triangles' by a belgian top brass is hardly surprising.

 

Frank you are not a sceptic I am a sceptic you are a debunker/ reality denier. You have read the testimony from the Belgian incident. The triangle was chased for 75 minutes tracked on radar by two separate radar stations.

Tracked on the cockpit radar by the military jets. Observed on the ground by thousands of witnesses including police, soldiers, civilians dogs and cats. According to your faulty logic. As you know best. They are all mistaken

according to you so I go back to my previous statements on this list. Your suffering from the arrogance of ignorance now that is a fact.

 

the hallucinations associated with schizophrenia and other psychoses used to be interpreted by the suffers as supernatural/religious/ghostly -they are now interpreted as electronic (eg the voices are caused by electronic

implants rather than being the voices of angels or devils) - the fact that somone is senior military does not discount belief or delusion.

 

Frank so as far as you are concerned all these people thousands of them including NATO radar stations, military commanders, civilians, pilots, police officers all suffered a mass delusion or are all suffering from some kind of

Schizophrenia and other psychoses. As you are right and everyone else is wrong. Frank Ive read the Sceptic/debunker play book and have been interacting with high level reality deniers for 20 years anything but the truth. Frank you can believe what you want that’s your business and what freedom is about, but please stop with all the remedial sceptic talk.

It is an elementary rule of logic that "you cant prove a negative"

 

Below a link to Omar Fowlers Flying Triangle Mystery PDF.

 

Omar Fowler former RAF, Crash investigator. I suppose he cant be trusted to accurately report anything either. Sorry Frank on this matter you are obviously 30 years behind new advanced technology. OR dare I say it. You never know Aliens may flying them. I as said Im investigating the case I will go where the evidence leads. NOT from a pre-conceived idea of what is going on.

 

Im moving forward with the investigation you can continue to think that anyone who sees or reports such things is either. "Mistaken, drunk, daft, irrational, hallucinations associated with schizophrenia and other psychoses used to be interpreted by the suffers as supernatural/religious/ghostly Well Frank you pretty much covered everything that a debunker would use as an argument as to why they did not see what they all said they saw.

 

Frank I’m not being aggressive and to be quite honest IM not bothered what you think If you cant stand a bit of heat then get out of the kitchen.

 

Below The Flying Triangle Mystery by Omar Fowler.

 

As it says on the wall at CIA headquarters Langley Virginia. “Know The Truth and the Truth Will Set You Free”

 

Have a nice day

 

http://www.ufoevidence.org/newsite/files/FlyingTriangleMystery.pdf

[chriscalcite 10]

Six Tornado aircraft leave RAF Coningsby at 20:45.

 

Hi Max,

 

I'm not here to pick a fight over little green men Anyone who knows anyone who flies will have heard their tales of seeing things they couldn't quite account for.

 

However the line above in the summary gives me pause. I'm in no way expert on RAF operational procedure, but it's been suggested to me that on-call interceptor squadrons only maintain two aircraft in air-combat readiness mode.

 

If you think about it, we're talking about having a total of six aircraft fully fuelled and armed with twelve aircrew sat around waiting to go on the off-chance someone approaches our airspace. That's most of the squadron. It would cost a fortune to maintain that sort of readiness outside of combat operations. Also, you wouldn't dispatch six aircraft to a single unidentified bogey (unless you wanted a mid-air collision) - normally interceptors go up in pairs.

 

It also strikes me personally that if you have twelve aircrew involved plus god alone knows how many dozens of ground crew surely one of 'em would've gotten drunk and dropped a hint somewhere or on the RAF forums... or have they already??

 

If someone with interceptor experience can contradict the above I'd be happy to accept their word. I'm not RAF or ex-RAF, it's only what I have been told by those who are (and it's hard to tell when they're joking with us civvies sometimes!).

[maxwell1 10]

Howdy, I cant speak for base operation procedures. But testimony came from a couple of plane spotters who were at the base perimeter. It has been confirmed by the military that many aircraft were there, but they say they cannot identify all the aircraft or where they launched from. A bit strange to say the least as the UK front line tactical bases launch if they pick anything up on radar if they cannot Id the object from transponder numbers.

 

Naturally if I had a full list of what planes were there and where they came from I could find out which one is missing

 

SOP (standard operating procedure)

 

You would think that the UK military would know what military aircraft they had in the skies over south Yorkshire on the night in question.

 

Apparently they didn’t, anyone with any common sense knows that is a lie.

 

I visited the base in 2001 where I went to interview the PRO at the base Caroline Hogg. The interview was conducted in the arrest sweet at the gate house. My request for an interview at the base took 4 years to get. They weren’t blocking me were they. My specific request that had to go to Whitehall

That request was to view the Base flight log book. I was quite clear in my written request to Whitehall as the base flight log book was now held off base. I clearly stated that I was not interested in seeing photo copies.

 

Upon arrival at the base with fellow investigator Matt Williams, we were shown in to the arrest sweet where seated was Hogg and a member of the security and provost services. (Military police) the first 20 minutes of the interview started by me being questioned about the case. I had to remind the officer that I was there to ask the questions this little chat even involved a veiled threat, to which I clearly stated to the officer . Are you threatening me?

 

I was shown a photo copy of the base flight log which only showed two aircraft taking off that night and returning safely. We were not allowed to take the photocopies of the log away, we were not allowed to take any notes, we were not allowed to audio record the interview, we were not allowed to film the interview.

 

The log shown by the base PRO (public relations officer) is being contradicted by the plane spotters.

 

It gets even stranger, at the time I was working down south near Bristol staying at the dog inn, old sodbury for a year at this point in the time line.

Only two people knew this address, my employer and the PRO at the base the MOD, who I had had contact with during the four years it took me to the interview. About 6 weeks after my visit to the base. I got a letter through the post, brown paper envelope, normal stamp on it. Upon opening the envelope inside

a different base flight log for the 24th March 1997. Off hand I cannot tell you the exact number of aircraft it showed it was over a dozen. They had exciting call signs like and this is one of the actual call signs from the mystery base flight log. Rambo 1, was one of the call signs. There was no

compliments slip with the log no note nothing. I still have it, I have never included it in my research as I cannot confirm its providence.

 

Being as I have personally seen two different flight logs for the same evening

something is going on here. Lets postulate for a few moments.

 

1.The RAF at Conninsby stalled for 4 years over the base flight log.

 

2.When I eventually got the meeting they did not meet my requests concerning the flight log. even though I clearly stated it in my written request.

 

3. We were not even allowed to take the photo copies that we were shown away.

 

4. If the log shown to me was authentic, why was I blocked from taking it away?

 

5. Later I get this new log sent to an address that only my boss and the M.O.D have?

 

6. Was this an attempt to plant false evidence in to my research by the MOD?

 

The witnesses in to the incident report many aircraft. The summary which I posted was written up by another individual who I dont know.

 

I hope this clears a few things up for you.

 

Max

[lolli_pop 10]

It has been confirmed by the military that many aircraft were there, but they say they cannot identify all the aircraft or where they launched from.

 

...

 

You would think that the UK military would know what military aircraft they had in the skies over south Yorkshire on the night in question.

 

I'm fairly sure they do know, whether they would ever release that information is an entirely different matter.

 

I'm not attacking you, Max - to be honest, I'm just surprised they went as far as letting you have an interview.

[maxwell1 10]

Who knows why they eventually dragged me to Lincolnshire from Bristol

to not meet the request that was clearly stipulated in my written

request to RAF Conningsby and the MOD at Whitehall.

 

They agreed to the meeting, put a forgery on a table that I wasnt

allowed to take away as that could be used as evidence of forgery at

a later date. My position is that they agreed to the meeting they had to

show me something but the real purpose of agreeing to the meeting was

in my opinion to de-brief me about what I knew.

 

I told the security officer that I probably know more about this than he

does as its well above his pay grade.

 

I kept my mouth shut, I was there to ask the questions.

 

I dont if that is what occurred, but it seems the only logical reason

to grant the meeting that I had been requesting for 4 years. Then

to not honour the request and purpose for me wanting the meeting.

 

Im open to suggestions

 

Answers on a post card

[lolli_pop 10]

Who knows why they eventually dragged me to Lincolnshire from Bristol to not meet the request that was clearly stipulated in my written request to RAF Conningsby and the MOD at Whitehall.

 

It does seem a mite odd that they bothered with that when they could have simply refused the request.

[chriscalcite 10]

Hi Max,

 

I'm following all of this - it's quite complicated at first though. You say:

 

But testimony came from a couple of plane spotters who were at the base perimeter.

 

I'm wondering how solid is the testimony of these guys? I wouldn't normally ask 'cos I suspect plane spotters probably know more about the aircraft than most of the groundcrew but the multiple aircraft were reported taking off at 20.45 on a March evening. It would of course be dark at that time in March - would they still be plane spotting do you think? They might be, I don't know the habits of plane spotters! It's just something that struck me. If it was me I'd like to be fairly confident of this bit as it's one of the pillars of evidence that the base log was dodgy.

 

Also the second flight log you got through the post. I'm wondering if you could check what sort of standard call signs the RAF use. 'rambo1' sounds a bit too gung-ho for our lot doesn't it? Of course if it is a forgery (and I think you're right not to use it without being sure) then it begs the question of whether it was sent to deliberately try and make you look silly or just as a prank. If you wound up the the provost guy by not giving him what he wanted then I could certainly see the latter being the case.

 

Either way the plot thickens, eh?

[maxwell1 10]

Hi Max,

 

I'm following all of this - it's quite complicated at first though. You say:

 

I'm wondering how solid is the testimony of these guys? I wouldn't normally ask 'cos I suspect plane spotters probably know more about the aircraft than most of the groundcrew but the multiple aircraft were reported taking off at 20.45 on a March evening. It would of course be dark at that time in March - would they still be plane spotting do you think? They might be, I don't know the habits of plane spotters! It's just something that struck me. If it was me I'd like to be fairly confident of this bit as it's one of the pillars of evidence that the base log was dodgy.

 

Yeah sure I can see valid points here. The plane spotters reported 20.45 6 jets, The base flight log that I was shown showed 2 aicraft I think 7.25 they say they took off. The Rambo 1 log, thats what made me go wo wo wo sweet child of mine. At least a dozen aircraft Launched If I remember correctly from 7.05 I think till about 9.25.

 

Both logs that I have seen were photocopies of actual flight log books.

The Rambo 1 log as I affectionetly call it had to come from inside the MOD. Maybe sent to me by one of the intel agencies from the department of dirty tricks.

Also the second flight log you got through the post. I'm wondering if you could check what sort of standard call signs the RAF use. 'rambo1' sounds a bit too gung-ho for our lot doesn't it?

 

It certainly does, but surely I thought if the intel agents have been on me over the years and they have. they would have profiled me. my IQ is higher than GW Bush. Rambo 1! I would have thought that they would have considered that it sounds a bit hokey. The problem is as I said. It came with no paperwork minimum a compliments slip. I dont know its providence. I decided to not waste my time on something I am not going to be able to verify.

Of course if it is a forgery (and I think you're right not to use it without being sure) then it begs the question of whether it was sent to deliberately try and make you look silly or just as a prank.

 

I dont think it was a MOD prankster they are not known for pranks. But trying to slip false evidence in to my research has been tried before by state assets. they failed as I always use evidence that can be checked and re checked.If you wound up the the provost guy by not giving him what he wanted then I could certainly see the latter being the case.

 

I was winding him up but only by speaking the truth its above his pay grade.

Your right the plot thickens Im just lucky to have my large wooden spoon handy for contined stirring of the plot

Either way the plot thickens, eh?

 

It certainly does

[Chris_B_1983 10]

I was speaking to my uncle earlier today regarding a WW2 plane I saw earlier in the week.

 

The subject eventually got around to the 1997 'Sheffield Incident', and discussion on different military aircraft. He witnessed the large plane initially, and managed to set up his camcorder (cutting edge technology in the late 90s no doubt). Unfortunately he was way too late to catch the large plane, but he managed some footage of the jets afterwards, albeit shaky (in his words the camera is shaking like a sh**ting dog).

 

Hoping to go around this weekend to see the footage, as I am interested to see what type of jets they are.

 

Did anyone else get any video footage of the incident at the time?

[Scrapman_Sid 10]

I was speaking to my uncle earlier today regarding a WW2 plane I saw earlier in the week.

 

The subject eventually got around to the 1997 'Sheffield Incident', and discussion on different military aircraft. He witnessed the large plane initially, and managed to set up his camcorder (cutting edge technology in the late 90s no doubt). Unfortunately he was way too late to catch the large plane, but he managed some footage of the jets afterwards, albeit shaky (in his words the camera is shaking like a sh**ting dog).

 

Hoping to go around this weekend to see the footage, as I am interested to see what type of jets they are.

 

Did anyone else get any video footage of the incident at the time?

 

 

I remember the radio reports coming in at the time, "unidentified flying object" that had crashed on the evening of the 24th of march 199 as I recall, the day after I was talking to my friend bottle top bill (he was called that for his love of diffrent bottled beers and ales from across the uk) he told me that he had recorded 20 secends of this just as it flew over stocksbridge

 

as we talked about how he managed to run downstair's and crabbed his camcorder, how lucky he was to get this footage and showed me this after he had it transfered to VHS, a year or two later I asked him if he still had the video tape in question of the footage, but unfortunately he had over recorded with footage of his aunt drunk at a wedding to which later he sent into "youve been framed", I then asked him why he did not keep this safe but then he reminded me that the week before the wedding he asked me if I knew of a place that sold good quality blank video tapes in the city centre, but I had one too many cans of skol that night so could not give him some good advice on where to go

 

---------- Post added 29-03-2013 at 22:57 ----------

 

I was speaking to my uncle earlier today regarding a WW2 plane I saw earlier in the week.

 

The subject eventually got around to the 1997 'Sheffield Incident', and discussion on different military aircraft. He witnessed the large plane initially, and managed to set up his camcorder (cutting edge technology in the late 90s no doubt). Unfortunately he was way too late to catch the large plane, but he managed some footage of the jets afterwards, albeit shaky (in his words the camera is shaking like a sh**ting dog).

 

Hoping to go around this weekend to see the footage, as I am interested to see what type of jets they are.

 

Did anyone else get any video footage of the incident at the time?

 

 

I remember the radio reports coming in at the time, "unidentified flying object" that had crashed on the evening of the 24th of march 1997 as I recall, the day after I was talking to my friend bottle top bill (he was called that for his love of different bottled beers and ales from across the uk) he told me that he had recorded 20 seconds of this just as it flew over stocksbridge

 

as we talked about how he managed to run downstair's and crabbed his camcorder, how lucky he was to get this footage and showed me this after he had it transferd to VHS, a year or two later I asked him if he still had the video tape in question of the footage, but unfortunately he had over recorded with footage of his aunt drunk at a wedding to which later he sent into "youve been framed", I then asked him why he did not keep this safe but then he reminded me that the week before the wedding he asked me if I knew of a place that sold good quality blank video tapes in the city centre, but I had one too many cans of skol that night so could not give him some good advice on where to go

[verona 10]

I was told from a very reliable source who went to the scene on the night in question, and was part of the investigation. I'm afraid it was nothing more than a jet smashing the sound barrier and people over-reacting.

[Chris_B_1983 10]

I remember the radio reports coming in at the time, "unidentified flying object" that had crashed on the evening of the 24th of march 199 as I recall, the day after I was talking to my friend bottle top bill (he was called that for his love of diffrent bottled beers and ales from across the uk) he told me that he had recorded 20 secends of this just as it flew over stocksbridge

 

as we talked about how he managed to run downstair's and crabbed his camcorder, how lucky he was to get this footage and showed me this after he had it transfered to VHS, a year or two later I asked him if he still had the video tape in question of the footage, but unfortunately he had over recorded with footage of his aunt drunk at a wedding to which later he sent into "youve been framed", I then asked him why he did not keep this safe but then he reminded me that the week before the wedding he asked me if I knew of a place that sold good quality blank video tapes in the city centre, but I had one too many cans of skol that night so could not give him some good advice on where to go

 

---------- Post added 29-03-2013 at 22:57 ----------

 

 

 

I remember the radio reports coming in at the time, "unidentified flying object" that had crashed on the evening of the 24th of march 1997 as I recall, the day after I was talking to my friend bottle top bill (he was called that for his love of different bottled beers and ales from across the uk) he told me that he had recorded 20 seconds of this just as it flew over stocksbridge

 

as we talked about how he managed to run downstair's and crabbed his camcorder, how lucky he was to get this footage and showed me this after he had it transferd to VHS, a year or two later I asked him if he still had the video tape in question of the footage, but unfortunately he had over recorded with footage of his aunt drunk at a wedding to which later he sent into "youve been framed", I then asked him why he did not keep this safe but then he reminded me that the week before the wedding he asked me if I knew of a place that sold good quality blank video tapes in the city centre, but I had one too many cans of skol that night so could not give him some good advice on where to go

 

I don't mean to go too far off subject here, but I used to know a guy called Bottletop Bill. We called him that for exactly the same reason; he loved different ales. I used to regularly sit in the Banker's Draft with him, sipping a pint of Carling extra cold whilst he worked his way through their range of bottled beers, and chatted about the good old days in Sheffield. He would reminisce about Park Hill flats, an what a great place it was to live in the 70s.

 

I haven't seen Bill for years. Sid, do you still see him? If so, could you find out if it is the same guy I remember? Ask him how he broke his foot in Halfway around a decade ago; if it is him, he will definitely have a tale of woe to regale you with!

 

But odds are it is someone else, I suppose the Bill I knew must be getting on a bit now.