Should life mean life?

[Puggie 10]

Netherlands doesn't have enough criminals to fill its prisons as crime to drops.

We need to follow the Scandinavian countries, not the USA.

We should rehabilitate prisoners, not punish them.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/12201375/Netherlands-doesnt-have-enough-criminals-to-fill-its-prisons-as-crime-to-drop.html

 

I completely agree, and this is where I start to diverge with my friends on the right.

 

As a country we've been getting things so desperately wrong on the criminal justice front for decades, and our history of practicing morality (religion) for thousands of years actually puts us at a disadvantage in how we deal with our social problems in the 21st century. It's really important that we acknowledge this.

 

The minute you take a problem in society and try to remedy this through the application of morality you'll instantly find yourself locked into an intractable matrix where nothing you do appears to solve the problem. In the social sciences we call these 'wicked' problems, examples would be drug addiction, crime & terrorism, poverty etc.

 

We know what the Scandinavians score much higher than us Brits on emotional intelligence, and this is very evident in how they deal with their social problems.

 

If you'd like to see what this looks like in practice watch [

] of Michael Moore investigating Norway's criminal justice system.

 

Warning: This clip can sometimes trigger an emotional response in people when the realisation of applied morality suddenly dawns. I call it the 'click' moment.

[El Cid 212]

Good post,I know it will upset some people but this to me is what the death penalty should be for,he got 3 years some time back for hitting his ex with a lump of wood,I wouldn't waste the taxpayers cash on him.

 

He should have been locked up, long enough for him to 'learn a better life'.

 

What ever happened to those indefinite sentence?

[PRESLEY 1,222]

Netherlands doesn't have enough criminals to fill its prisons as crime to drops.

We need to follow the Scandinavian countries, not the USA.

We should rehabilitate prisoners, not punish them.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/12201375/Netherlands-doesnt-have-enough-criminals-to-fill-its-prisons-as-crime-to-drop.html

 

Just wonder if you would be of the same opinions if you were a victim. God forbid that by the way.

[Cyclone 10]

The ex homeless piece of dirt Aaron Barly who murdered the people who tried to help him has been given life but must serve a minimum of 30 years,should he have a chance of walking our streets again.

 

What do you think the point of incarceration is? Serious question, not being funny, but what do you think it's supposed to achieve?

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:50 ----------

 

Good post,I know it will upset some people but this to me is what the death penalty should be for,he got 3 years some time back for hitting his ex with a lump of wood,I wouldn't waste the taxpayers cash on him.

 

It shouldn't upset anyone. It should make them respond to point out how many people were wrongly killed by the state, and how it's really very hard to repeal a death sentence if you've got it wrong...

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:51 ----------

 

Just wonder if you would be of the same opinions if you were a victim. God forbid that by the way.

 

If it results in an overall lower rate of crime, than everyone, victims and not, should be in favour of it.

 

If the choice is to punish, or to reduce the level of crime, then surely the latter ensures less victims in the future, whereas the former ensures more victims.

[Puggie 10]

Just wonder if you would be of the same opinions if you were a victim. God forbid that by the way.

 

Victims don't have a say on the matter. It's the politics of morality which informs our criminal justice system and not the sciences, which is why it's incredibly difficult to produce good policy that actually works.

 

Just look at the OP's opening sentence for example, he describes Aaron as a "piece of dirt" so we already know the OP is looking at this problem through the prism of morality - good vs evil, the saints vs the devils. This is religion.

[tinfoilhat 11]

I completely agree, and this is where I start to diverge with my friends on the right.

 

As a country we've been getting things so desperately wrong on the criminal justice front for decades, and our history of practicing morality (religion) for thousands of years actually puts us at a disadvantage in how we deal with our social problems in the 21st century. It's really important that we acknowledge this.

 

The minute you take a problem in society and try to remedy this through the application of morality you'll instantly find yourself locked into an intractable matrix where nothing you do appears to solve the problem. In the social sciences we call these 'wicked' problems, examples would be drug addiction, crime & terrorism, poverty etc.

 

We know what the Scandinavians score much higher than us Brits on emotional intelligence, and this is very evident in how they deal with their social problems.

 

If you'd like to see what this looks like in practice watch [

] of Michael Moore investigating Norway's criminal justice system.

 

Warning: This clip can sometimes trigger an emotional response in people when the realisation of applied morality suddenly dawns. I call it the 'click' moment.

 

So how long would you give this chap who killed two people and tried to kill a third? It was planned, hes shown no remorse.

[ukdobby 223]

What do you think the point of incarceration is? Serious question, not being funny, but what do you think it's supposed to achieve?

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:50 ----------

 

 

It shouldn't upset anyone. It should make them respond to point out how many people were wrongly killed by the state, and how it's really very hard to repeal a death sentence if you've got it wrong...

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:51 ----------

 

 

If it results in an overall lower rate of crime, than everyone, victims and not, should be in favour of it.

 

If the choice is to punish, or to reduce the level of crime, then surely the latter ensures less victims in the future, whereas the former ensures more victims.

 

I would have had him hung,I think that answers both,on another note do you think if the Vegas guy had been caught alive he could have been allowed out of jail?

[maidinsheff 10]

Life should mean life but not if it means free board and lodgings at the expense of everyone else. Prisons should be places of work - bloody hard work - and nothing without you've worked and paid for it.....give them a taste of real life. Also notice that twelve more naughty men from Rotherham are due in court. I wonder what kind of education they should be provided with to set them on the straight and narrow.

[retep 68]

What do you think the point of incarceration is? Serious question, not being funny, but what do you think it's supposed to achieve?

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:50 ----------

 

 

It shouldn't upset anyone. It should make them respond to point out how many people were wrongly killed by the state, and how it's really very hard to repeal a death sentence if you've got it wrong...

 

---------- Post added 04-10-2017 at 14:51 ----------

 

 

If it results in an overall lower rate of crime, than everyone, victims and not, should be in favour of it.

 

If the choice is to punish, or to reduce the level of crime, then surely the latter ensures less victims in the future, whereas the former ensures more victims.

 

What it does and what it should achieve is safety for the public, if that means full life that should be the sentence.

[Harrystottle 10]

Define 'works'.

 

It's a purely subjective question.

 

The concept of prison 'working' for some means punishment. Stopping recidivism by force - literally, if they're locked up, they can't commit crimes. For others, 'working' means rehabilitating.

 

Good post.

 

To answer the OP, it varies on a case by case basis.

 

The idea that someone like Ted Bundy could be rehabilitated back to normalcy seems wishful thinking though.

[cressida 1,550]

The ex homeless piece of dirt Aaron Barly who murdered the people who tried to help him has been given life but must serve a minimum of 30 years,should he have a chance of walking our streets again.

 

imo no

 

He has wiped two decent people off the face of the earth, can you imagine how the rest of the family would feel if they happened to meet him in the street? e.g. shopping - like that Tracey Andrews was doing when she was let out temporarily:mad:

[francypants 441]

Should life mean life ?

 

Emphatically yes.