Thousands were raped & beaten in Ireland's Catholic run reform schools

[donkey 10]

Do you think this didn't happen in Protestant boarding schools and orphanages?

 

Also, on reading your post again, did you mean 'sadists' instead of 'masochists'?

 

The issue isn't what religion it was involved, it is that the people in the top echelons of the church were involved, not just in Ireland, but in the US (no doubt other countries will follow). In fact this goes all the way to the papacy, because it is the Popes ( past and present) who are ultimately responsible. Their policy has been one of consistently turning a blind eye, until the mounting evidence of systematic abuse became to much to get away with ignoring it any more, at which point they adopted a policy of cover up and damage limitation, which seeks to support and protect the offenders involved, whilst at the same time playing down the harm done, and attempting to marginalise the victims.

[splodgeyAl 10]

But, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

 

 

 

 

 

ie, it was ever thus

[happyhippy 11]

Agreed, however, 'political' point scoring is not the issue here, regardless as to whether it's religious politics or non religious politics.

 

This is an issue based upon common human respect, decency , dignity and more importantly, integrity.

 

Children are born free. His/her mind is a blank canvas, just waiting for a myriad of experiences to colour it in.

 

All behaviours are either taught or learned. Most parents are happy for their kids to learn yet some are only happy for their kids to be taught.

 

Teaching and learning are NOT mutually exclusive.

 

Everyday, parents are abusing their position by force feeding children with their religious doctrines. Parents also force feed their children with other doctrines, equally poisonous. In essence, parents infect all of their off- spring with all of their failings, doubts and self-serving ideals.

 

A parent should have one main role only. To provide a child with enough information to enable it to make an informed decision.

 

Indoctrinating a minor, for whatever reason, should be seen as nothing other than child abuse and dealt with accordingly.

 

A truly wonderful idea, yet utterly implausible. Every thing you do as a parent will influence your child, whether you want it to or not. If you're a Hindu supporting Owl, one offspring may well agree with you, as you've taken them to a temple and gone to Hillsborough. Your next may well turn out to be Muslim Blade to spite.

 

This however is way away from the point, which is that children for years were systematically abused and ignored by the authorities.

 

As an Irish citizen, I'm ashamed of this, and I had nowt to do with it, and the same with the Magdelene Laundries. The fact that it was officially covered up is a national disgrace. I can understand those who defend their religion, but those who abused were not following their religion.

 

To the Christians, these people were as Christian as the Romans who crucified your God On Earth.

[plekhanov 10]

Archbishop of Westminster attacks atheism but says nothing on child abuse

The Times May 22, 2009

 

Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

 

The new and the departing Archbishops of Westminster launched a joint offensive yesterday against atheists and secular society.

 

At the installation of the Most Rev Vincent Nichols at Westminster Cathedral, his predecessor, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, described a lack of faith as “the greatest of evils” and blamed atheism for war and destruction, implying that it was a greater evil even than sin itself. After receiving the crozier marking the office, Archbishop Nichols, glitteringly vested in newly minted gold mitre and chasuble, also defended faith against the secular agenda.

 

In his homily he said: “Faith in God is not, as some would portray it today, a narrowing of the human mind or spirit. It is precisely the opposite. “Faith in God is the gift that takes us beyond our limited self, with all its incessant demands . . . Some today propose that faith and reason are crudely opposed, with the fervour of faith replacing good reason. This reduction of both faith and reason inhibits not only our search for truth but also the possibility of real dialogue.”

 

The two-hour Mass, at the end of which Archbishop Nichols was applauded at length by the congregation of 2,000 as he processed outside to chat to onlookers in the warm sunshine, signalled the tone of an archi-episcopacy that could last for 17 years.

 

Archbishop Nichols, who is 63 and could remain in his post as 11th Archbishop of Westminster until his 80th birthday, gave clear signals that his main thrust as spiritual leader of the 4.2 million Catholics of England and Wales will be to secure a place for Christianity at the centre of the country’s increasingly secular society.

 

But furious reaction to comments that Archbishop Nichols had made about child abuse in Ireland threatened to cast a shadow over the installation. Referring to the report published on Wednesday that exposed decades of child abuse by Catholic priests and nuns in Ireland, the Archbishop had said that it took courage for religious orders and clergy to “face the facts from their past”. He also warned that the report threatened to overshadow the good done by the religious orders, chiefly the Christian Brothers and Sisters of Mercy.

 

Michele Elliott, the chief executive of the charity Kidscape, said: “It is ludicrous. It should be a straightforward mea culpa. It is a moral stance, and he should say that it is all about the children and the rest of them be damned.”

 

A spokesman for the campaign group Irish Survivors of Child Abuse also criticised his remarks.

 

Patrick Walsh said: “Rubbish is too kind a word for what the Archbishop has said . . . It is the verbiage of unreason, and it leaves me cold. What the Archbishop really has to do is take a long hard look at the character and nature of the people he is talking about and ask himself if they are capable of being good.”

 

Despite his controversial comments, Archbishop Nichols was one of the few Roman Catholic leaders to say that the perpetrators, who have been granted anonymity and may never be prosecuted, should be held to account.

 

In his homily at the service, Archbishop Nichols did not refer to child abuse, but pledged himself to a battle against the advancing tide of secularisation and a defence of faith.

 

Citing St Paul, he said that faith was not only compatible with the mind’s capacity for reasoned thought but complemented it.

 

“Some today propose that faith and reason are crudely opposed, with the fervour of faith replacing good reason. This reduction of both faith and reason inhibits not only our search for truth but also the possibility of real dialogue,” he added.

 

Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor went farther. Referring to the battles that will be won and lost in the effort to sustain the Christian presence in secular society, he said: “What is most crucial is the prayer that we express every day in the Our Father, when we say ‘deliver us from evil’. The evil we ask to be delivered from is not essentially the evil of sin, though that is clear, but in the mind of Jesus it is more importantly a loss of faith. For Jesus, the inability to believe in God and to live by faith is the greatest of evils.

 

“You see the things that result from this are an affront to human dignity, destruction of trust between peoples, the rule of egoism and the loss of peace. One can never have true justice, true peace, if God becomes meaningless to people.”

 

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, and the Bishop of London, Richard Chartres, all attended the ceremony.

“the greatest of evils”? What worse than genocide, enslaving people, raping children or enabling others to rape children?

 

The gall of these people is just astonishing, in the week that there church was once again exposed as an organisation that covered up for paedophiles for decades whilst supplying them with fresh children to rape and which is still doing everything it can to shield those paedophiles and those who assisted them from prosecution, to say that not believing in a magic man who lives in the sky is 'the greatest of evil' just beggars belief.

[Crayfish 10]

This was a vile despicable sustained period - the individuals involved should be facing charges and (if found guilty) extremely lengthy jail terms. For anyone in a position of power to take advantage of the vulnerable individuals in their charge is a thoroughly vile act.

 

However people using this story for a bit of "all religion is evil" political points scoring is also pretty callous and unpleasent.

 

You're right. Lets tone it down guys.

 

MOST religion is evil!

[EbonyBranch 10]

However people using this story for a bit of "all religion is evil" political points scoring is also pretty callous and unpleasent.

I haven't yet downloaded and read the report, so what I'm saying here is entirely speculative. While you are right that this case doesn't tell us that "all religion is evil", it probably does highlight one of the problems with religion; the undue respect and deference given to those who claim to act in its name. The accusations made against the christian brothers and sisters of mercy were probably afforded less credibility because they were levelled by 'immoral delinquents' against men and women of the cloth. In a society where religious observance is automatically considered a sign of enhanced morality, whose word are the authorities more likely to trust?

 

In a secular society, all people and organisations, regardless of faith affiliation, should be treated equally and fairly. No society is perfect, not even a secular one, but this is an ideal to aspire to.

 

Moreover, a philosophy that believes, as does xtianity, that suffering in this brief, mortal world leads to paradise in the hereafter is almost bound to be a source of suffering. It makes perfect sense! Accept jesus, endure your suffering (as he did), die and find paradise!

[Mr Westwood 10]

This was a vile despicable sustained period - the individuals involved should be facing charges and (if found guilty) extremely lengthy jail terms. For anyone in a position of power to take advantage of the vulnerable individuals in their charge is a thoroughly vile act.

 

However people using this story for a bit of "all religion is evil" political points scoring is also pretty callous and unpleasent.

 

Religion makes its own reputation. Whether you find it callous or not, horrific things are done by people who claim to be holier than the rest of us because of who they believe in.

 

You sound like a child. Religion can be and should be challenged at every turn, whether you find it callous and unpleasant or not.

[Mathom 10]

Remember that there is another significant body to blame in this, namely the Irish Government, who were the ones to allow religious orders to do the job the state should have been doing. And then went on to not inspect them properly, have a judicial system which colluded with orders who needed more children for slave labour and refused to allow women any benefits if they were unmarried or divorced mothers.

[Mr Westwood 10]

Remember that there is another significant body to blame in this, namely the Irish Government, who were the ones to allow religious orders to do the job the state should have been doing. And then went on to not inspect them properly, have a judicial system which colluded with orders who needed more children for slave labour and refused to allow women any benefits if they were unmarried or divorced mothers.

 

Perhaps the Irish government thought the Catholic church could be trusted with god's children.

[Grahame 10]

Religion makes its own reputation. Whether you find it callous or not, horrific things are done by people who claim to be holier than the rest of us because of who they believe in.

 

You sound like a child. Religion can be and should be challenged at every turn, whether you find it callous and unpleasant or not.

 

If you want a Challenge try sorting the world out. It is full of people like you and if you look in the mirror you will see one. They are called atheists. Now take that plank out of your eye and look to how people SHOULD be instead of finding fault with those who stumble along the way. Don't forget that every organisation like schools and scouts attracts undesirables who give excellent organisations a bad name. Like I say, look in the papers and you will find atheists galore and you ought to be ashamed of them instead of ignoring the beatings and the murders that happen daily that you can see in Sheffield any night of the week.

 

.

[Mr Westwood 10]

If you want a Challenge try sorting the world out. It is full of people like you and if you look in the mirror you will see one. They are called atheists. Now take that plank out of your eye and look to how people SHOULD be instead of finding fault with those who stumble along the way. Don't forget that every organisation like schools and scouts attracts undesirables who give excellent organisations a bad name. Like I say, look in the papers and you will find atheists galore and you ought to be ashamed of them instead of ignoring the beatings and the murders that happen daily that you can see in Sheffield any night of the week.

 

.

 

Still looking for others to blame Grahame? I understand why at this time you are feeling threatened. If I believed, I would pray for you.

[Grahame 10]

Still looking for others to blame Grahame? I understand why at this time you are feeling threatened. If I believed, I would pray for you.

 

It is you atheists who look for someone to blame, you make a career of it. Take the plank of wood out of your eyes.

.