God does NOT exist! (Part 2)

[flamingjimmy 10]

The disciples took the donkey with the owners consent.

That's not what it says. Sure they explained why they were taking it but it doesn't say the owners gave consent. Once when I was being mugged I was told the reason that they were taking my phone was because I was being cheeky. That does not equate to me letting them take my phone.

[devil6 10]

1. The Old Testament is about the history of the Hebrew nation and as we have already seen those verses are for the servants protection. If you like you can check back.

 

2. The New Testament is for today and the verses you give prove what I was saying about how words change over the years. "Christians who are slaves" does not work but if you read it as "Christians who are workers" we can see that it applies to us. Being a company employee, I work for my boss and I serve my customers and clients. This is a far cry from being a slave the like of which we saw in the days of William Wilberforce which is a modern invention.

 

3. Bearing this in mind the New Testament verses you gave read thus:

 

a) For workers to obey their bosses.

b) For workers to respect their bosses.

c) Is different in as much as it is about the second coming of Jesus and Judgement day and is a warning to Christians that if they neglect to do their duty they will be punished even then because I am a servant of Christ.

 

All these three instructions if followed make for good employees and there is no reason why everyone cannot follow them.

.

 

 

When you refer to slaves as workers it highlights the depth to which you have been manipulated. Here are some of the peices of scripture which you percieve and argue as being acceptable:

 

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

 

Or maybe this sweet reference to "workers":

Colossians 3:1

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality.

 

 

And if that's not enough to convince the neutral:

Timothy 6:1-5 (NRSV)

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

 

Check out the first sentence of this new testament reference to "workers"-

 

Titus 2:9-10,15 (NRSV)

 

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. … Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

 

 

How can you possibly argue that this type of scripture is acceptable? In your mind, can you honestly read it so differently to me?

[quisquose 10]

The disciples took the donkey with the owners consent.

 

The rest is a matter for debate. Perhaps some other time?

 

.

 

The disciples may or may not have got consent from the owners, but they still went with the intent to steal. Acting under orders and all that.

 

flamingjimmy has hit the nail on the head on this thread, having a list of absolute moral commandments with no elbow room is very silly indeed.

[devil6 10]

I think that any self-proclaimed Bible believer should be ashamed of the Bible’s stance on slavery.

 

An interesting way to sow some cognitive dissonance in the Christian who honestly believes that slavery is wrong AND that the Bible is the word of God is to challenge him as to whether he is ashamed of the Bible’s stance.

 

If not, would he care to loudly “declare with all authority” that “slaves should be submissive to their masters?”

 

If he is hesitant to do that, really try to get him to discover why he’s hesitating.

 

Moving along:

 

1 Peter 2:13-14 (NRSV)

 

For the Lord’s sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

 

 

When God says “accept the authority of every human institution” what did he mean?

 

This verse cuts down the “slavery was different back then…” response that is ALSO so prevalent.

 

If you really want to argue that slavery was different back in the day, 1 Peter 2:13 says to accept the authority of every human institution.

 

So, it doesn’t matter if slavery is different later than Biblical times, it’s a human institution, the authority of which you should accept

 

1 Peter 2:15-20 (NRSV)

 

For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.

 

Slaves who are suffering under unjust masters, the Bible says you should accept your punishment and the authority of your masters, because God credits those who suffer unjustly.

 

Remember: you have God’s approval.

 

1 Peter 2:21-25 (NRSV)

 

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were going astray like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

 

Now Grahame, how in "gods" name do you begin to justify such ridiculous behavior towards other human beings instructed by your righteous new testament?

[John1954 10]

The disciples took the donkey with the owners consent.

 

The rest is a matter for debate. Perhaps some other time?

 

.

 

... or was the author of Matthew correct and the disciples took two donkeys. Jesus then bizarrely rode into Jerusalem atop two donkeys!

 

Was he also a circus performer?

[devil6 10]

You need to compare like with like and the Old Testament is the history of a nation while the New Testament is about Christianity.

 

If it says "Rolex" on a watch it does not mean it is, the same with people who say they are "Christian."

 

.

 

What does that mean? If it says "Rolex" on a watch doesn't mean it is? If is some form of reference to some christians been fake, then i ask you this; what makes you so right with your personal perception of christianity? Would you not agree most of is rather open to interpretation?

 

I can safely say most people who believe in scripture have their own personal reasons for believing different sections to those of the same faith. Perception is a wonderful thing, it's what makes us unique, but when you apply it to religion it can actually be very dangerous.

 

To me Grahame you seem like a decent chap who lives his life with a level of morality that is admirable, but to claim religion as the reason for it, i find rather unfair towards your own personal inbuilt personality.

 

One freedom i think an atheist has is that i genuinely don't need extreme threats of hell in order to make decisions which may effect another creature and how it should choose to live it's life. I like to think i created my morals with the help of my atheist parents and numerous friends [some of faith] who have influenced my personality. I don't believe in god, doesn't mean i don't have a personal perception of right and wrong. I think right and wrong comes as naturally as walking, and is largely dictated by culture.

[leviathan13 349]

You need to compare like with like and the Old Testament is the history of a nation while the New Testament is about Christianity.

 

If it says "Rolex" on a watch it does not mean it is, the same with people who say they are "Christian."

 

.

 

So does that mean that your God could be a fake too?

[EbonyBranch 10]

It was a hard brutal world, slavery was part of that world. We cannot accept slavery as anything good, thats because our morals have changed. The politics of society have changed.

It is probably impossible in any debate about the bible to refrain from importing our own modern political and social values into it.

As I've said before some of the bible sickens me and I will never agree that certain acts of God were just.

We should thank those right thinking men and women both religious and non religious who went against their social peers and the established norm to change our way of thinking about our fellow man.

 

A lot of evil has been done in the name of religion but surely some good too.

Rich, I may not agree with your religion (in fact, I think it's more than just a little bit mad!) but your honesty and openmindedness put Grahame to shame.

[EbonyBranch 10]

So does that mean that your God could be a fake too?

 

Oowwwww! Now I've gotta wipe all that coffee off my screen!

[EbonyBranch 10]

1. The Old Testament is about the history of the Hebrew nation and as we have already seen those verses are for the servants protection. If you like you can check back.

 

2. The New Testament is for today and the verses you give prove what I was saying about how words change over the years. "Christians who are slaves" does not work but if you read it as "Christians who are workers" we can see that it applies to us. Being a company employee, I work for my boss and I serve my customers and clients. This is a far cry from being a slave the like of which we saw in the days of William Wilberforce which is a modern invention.

 

3. Bearing this in mind the New Testament verses you gave read thus:

 

a) For workers to obey their bosses.

b) For workers to respect their bosses.

c) Is different in as much as it is about the second coming of Jesus and Judgement day and is a warning to Christians that if they neglect to do their duty they will be punished even then because I am a servant of Christ.

 

All these three instructions if followed make for good employees and there is no reason why everyone cannot follow them.

.

 

I had a quick trawl through Bible Gateway; I've not yet found a translation that substitutes 'workers' for 'slaves'. I suspect this interpretation is solely extant in The New Grahame Version (NGV), only available in a rather exclusive and unaccredited edition.

 

Some translations do use the word 'servants' instead of 'slaves', but these verses still instruct one that it's kosher to beat 'servants' to death if it takes them more than a couple of days to die. I'd suggest that the semantic difference is negligible.

 

As you feel that the OT verses in question are there for the protection of servants/slaves, perhaps you can explain how 'protected' you'd feel if your boss was allowed to beat you to death under similar circumstances. After all, Mosaic law may not now apply to gentiles, including xtians (depending on who you ask; opinions differ) but it is still the inspired word of god.

 

As for the NT verses; the first two I quoted are probably the most evil. here they are again:

 

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

 

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 

Passages like these were used to 'persuade' (for want of a better word) forcibly christianised slaves that their situation was sanctioned by yhvh.

 

And, just 'cos I can, here are some more of the leading lights of xtianity, including seminal or prominent Methodists, Calvinists and Baptists, who opposed on biblical grounds the abolition of slavery.

 

George Whitefield, famed for his sparking of the so-called Great Awakening of American evangelicalism, campaigned, in Georgia, for the legalisation of slavery; slavery had been outlawed in Georgia, but due to George's campaign it was legalised in 1751.

 

Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of ***** suffrage - Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian pastor

 

... the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.

Richard Furman, President, South Carolina Baptist Convention

 

Furman expanded on this in a book called: EXPOSITION of The Views of the Baptists, RELATIVE TO THE COLOURED POPULATION In the United States, which makes a sound scriptural argument for the keeping of slaves:

 

Had the holding of slaves been a moral evil, it cannot be supposed, that the inspired Apostles, who feared not the faces of men, and were ready to lay down their lives in the cause of their God, would have tolerated it, for a moment, in the Christian Church. If they had done so on a principle of accommodation, in cases where the masters remained heathen, to avoid offences and civil commotion; yet, surely, where both master and servant were Christian, as in the case before us, they would have enforced the law of Christ, and required, that the master should liberate his slave in the first instance. But, instead of this, they let the relationship remain untouched, as being lawful and right, and insist on the relative duties.

 

...and finally (for now)...:

 

[slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts - Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

 

Davis had every reason to think this true; a lot of important and respected theologians told him so!

[EbonyBranch 10]

I'd just like to repeat an ever popular question to Grahame:

 

please name the atheists who (according to you) comprised the opposition to abolition.

 

Time to go sleepy nah nahs...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Rich Siddall 10]

Rich, I may not agree with your religion (in fact, I think it's more than just a little bit mad!) but your honesty and openmindedness put Grahame to shame.

 

I guess I'm just searching for something missing in my life, can God or religion give it me, I don't know. Maybe I'm looking for some ideal within christianity or religion that should be there but isn't.

 

I've not even had a religious upbringing. I went to Sunday school as a lad, but that was nearly 40 years ago and I cant even remember it, i had RE at school, but that was just listening to the stories and doing a few pages of text on them. the only church going was weddings and funerals. I'd read the bible over a number of years but never intently.

 

I've studied history, biology and astronomy so i have an understanding of where I stand in the universe, Im intelligent and imaginative , a teacher told me i was a day-dreamer.

Recently I've been reading the bible with the JWs, I thought maybe these are what true christians are, but even they don't quite do it for me, those hard questions I ask, are pushed under the carpet, I like them though they are really nice people, I know people resent them knocking on their doors wanting to talk about Jesus, but I respect the strength and commitment that takes to do in an increasing secular society.

 

This thread has been a real eye opener at times, its had its highs and its lows and I'd like to thank again everyone who's posted.

 

I've always though that ones relationship with God is a personal thing, he knows who i am and whats in my heart. We don't need churches and suchlike telling us how to worship, I'd even hazard a guess he doesn't want that either.

 

but right or wrong. it doesn't matter, in less than 50 years i'll most likely be dead and rotting, the world will still turn, other people will be born and die, and the universe will not even have noticed me at all.

 

I'm tired