Sorry but a Hillborough question

[BananaSplit 10]

Surely that was quite a long time afterwards? I came out of the back of the Kop and ambulances were queuing there. At that stage most fans were still in the ground.

 

 

I'd been in the park most of the day with my friends, but if you're asking me to recall what the time was when people started coming out of the ground and the ambulances were on Penistone Road, then I'd guess at around 3.30pm'ish.

 

Do bear in mind this is 20 years later, so my time-recalling might not be the most accurate and I'm not offering that time with any sure certainty. It could have been 10 minutes earlier, it could have been 10 minutes later.

 

The point I'm making is that there were people on Penistone Road as the ambulances were queuing up.

[*bobstar* 10]

Do bear in mind this is 20 years later, so my time-recalling might not be the most accurate and I'm not offering that time with any sure certainty. It could have been 10 minutes earlier, it could have been 10 minutes later.

 

Good point actually. When calling for justice and for this to be a reopened enquiry are the families expecting fresh evidence to be given and for people to recall events clearly from 20 yrs ago or do they just want to review information taken at the time ??

[BananaSplit 10]

Good point actually. When calling for justice and for this to be a reopened enquiry are the families expecting fresh evidence to be given and for people to recall events clearly from 20 yrs ago or do they just want to review information taken at the time ??

 

I would have thought that there are still statements on record that were given at the time.

[Womerry2 10]

There is already some doubt about the veracity of some allegedly revised statements on record.

 

The only valid angle for a new investigation is the time after 3.15 - could any of the deaths have been prevented if enough ambulances had been allowed on in time to treat the injuries?

 

Even then, no consolation can come from this. The lessons of Hillsborough have been learnt in the improved layout of the terraces and in the way football matches are policed. The greatest justice for the 96, in my opinion, would be to stop abusing their names and memories. They went to watch a match. This does not make them the eternal and exclusive property of LFC.

[Raggy 10]

I'd been in the park most of the day with my friends, but if you're asking me to recall what the time was when people started coming out of the ground and the ambulances were on Penistone Road, then I'd guess at around 3.30pm'ish.

 

Do bear in mind this is 20 years later, so my time-recalling might not be the most accurate and I'm not offering that time with any sure certainty. It could have been 10 minutes earlier, it could have been 10 minutes later.

 

The point I'm making is that there were people on Penistone Road as the ambulances were queuing up.

 

I wasn't haven't a go at your recollection. Just trying to get it straight in my own mind. The players were taken off the pitch at 3.06. Those of us on the Kop didn't know what was happening at this stage. It must've been 5-10 mins later I went to see if I could get a cup of tea. (That sounds bizarre now but we still thought the game would resume as we weren't aware of any fatalities). I was surprised to see the gates at the back of the Kop open and I walked out onto Penistone Road to see what was happening. That must've been around the time the ambulances would've expected to gain access to the ground.

[*bobstar* 10]

I would have thought that there are still statements on record that were given at the time.

 

My question then (one for you Frank I guess)....

 

If statements were made public that indicated that people died after 3.15 and that their lives MAY have been saved if ambulances had been allowed on the pitch what would the outcome be?

 

Whos fault would it then be that they died? Im trying to undertstand what justice or truth people are looking for and what they expect this to provide. It wont give closure as there will never be one person or one catalytic event that caused this. If there was then you would get closure as you can place ALL THE BLAME on them or that but in this instance I cannot see this ever happening.

[Smithster 10]

I quite agree with the above. It's the apparent lack of acknowledgement that some of the Liverpool fans were less than angelically behaved that doesn't sit well with me, and if they think about it, undermines any credibility they have.

 

Well this is another issue isn't it. with Liverpool fans, it would seem to be a case of the boy (or boys) who cried wolf. Their record with hooliganism prior to the Hillsborough tragedy was less than perfect to say the least. The Heysel incident was still very fresh in the memories of most people and an awful lot of people will have put two and two together and thought "Those bloody Liverpool fans causing trouble again" - I acknowledge that this was my immediate reaction, although I was only 14 at the time.

 

Then there were the reports of Liverpool fans in Athens only a few years ago mugging their own fans and stealing their tickets for the CL final. Once again, it is obviously only a handful of bad apples spoiling the bunch, but it does their reputation no favours at all.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Smithster

[BananaSplit 10]

I wasn't haven't a go at your recollection. Just trying to get it straight in my own mind. The players were taken off the pitch at 3.06. Those of us on the Kop didn't know what was happening at this stage. It must've been 5-10 mins later I went to see if I could get a cup of tea. (That sounds bizarre now but we still thought the game would resume as we weren't aware of any fatalities). I was surprised to see the gates at the back of the Kop open and I walked out onto Penistone Road to see what was happening. That must've been around the time the ambulances would've expected to gain access to the ground.

 

Hi Raggy, I know you weren't.

 

It seems we are both right in our recollection, but I'm guessing your observation was made earlier than mine.

 

I can remember the ambulances arriving and we all ran down to the railings to see what was going on (as you do when you're a teenager).

 

Given our location we couldn't crane our necks around the railings to see the ground, but we guessed there had been some fighting or similar (bizarre now when you consider the number of ambulances).

 

We could hear the noise from the ground but we didn't realise anything so serious had happened until people started coming out of the ground. As I say, we just assumed people had been fighting as was sadly the norm in the 80s.

[Mathom 10]

The 'justice' is, I believe, to be able to see the official reports that have been kept secret for the past 20 years. Fair enough.

 

As for banging on ambulances, I'd do that too if I was scared to death, wandering the streets, and knew there were dozens of dead and dying people yards away and yet medics were sitting there doing nothing!

[Frank Sidney 11]

The 'justice' is, I believe, to be able to see the official reports that have been kept secret for the past 20 years. Fair enough.

 

As for banging on ambulances, I'd do that too if I was scared to death, wandering the streets, and knew there were dozens of dead and dying people yards away and yet medics were sitting there doing nothing!

 

This is what its all about some openness. Both sides are that entrenched that they do not believe anything the other side says.

 

We have the authorities point of view that it was all to do with drunken yobs. Then we have the other side which claims it was a cover up.

 

News flash - Some football supporters are yobs.

News flash - Some coppers are liars.

 

If we see all the documents then we can make our minds up.

 

One point though, if the unreleased documents would prove catagorically that the police were blameless and it was all to do with alcohol fuelled Liverpool fans. Why do you think the police haven't used them by now?

 

What we don't need is statements from some bystander claiming, "Well er one of em peed up mi tree on his way, he was drunk and obviously out for trouble."

 

At the end of the day we have lots of eye witness accounts of drunken fans and also lots of eye witness accounts of police blunders. Unless you were there you don't know.

 

I wasn't, I base my opinion of what I have read, I'd like to read more, so lets have another enquiry.

[RazorSHarp 10]

I was in the Punch Bowl at Crookes and remember loads of Liverpool fans still in there at 2:45, I was thinking that they were never going to get to the ground in time for the match. I wouldn't say they were smashed but they had definately had a fair few !!

[blades74 10]

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Edited April 17, 2009 by blades74