Sorry but a Hillborough question

[BananaSplit 10]

tbh, having seen the first ambulance man, who was interviewed on TV this week, and seeing the obvious toll that day took on him, the only medical based person present trying to decide his course of action amid the chaos. After 20 years of asking himself 'what if' and constantly being taken back there by random sounds, smells, noises, who could fail to feel sorry for him? Or wouild they like to scapegoat him in the absence of any other obvious target?

 

I asked on another thread what would satisfy 'the families' and didn't get any sort of answer before the thread was closed. I don't think they'll ever be satisfied, because the only answers that they will get, as far as I can see, will be ones they don't want.

 

The Taylor Report tried to make it more palatable for Liverpool to swallow, but they haven't been able to so far and I don't think they ever will. Even Duckenfield's head on a spike won't satisfy them. What they want, their loved ones back, can't happen. They need to find some peace within themselves and move on, whatever they find out won't be anything they need or want, imo. It's pitiful and everyone feels sorry for them, but what can anyone do to make it better?

 

 

A spot on post Nat.

 

I purposely avoided the news on the 15th, as I cannot bear to stomach the self serving appeals by the Justice for 96.

 

I'm not alone in that - the news programmes are too aware of upsetting the Liverpool contingent of fans, and therefore skirt around the issue and collate a namby-pamby account of events produced purely to avoid a riot in Liverpool.

 

If these people want the truth, let them have it.

 

But let them have the WHOLE truth.

 

As I've said twice before, a second inquiry could prove to be a HUGE mistake for them, but if they so want it, let them have it.

[cd1965 10]

I have deliberated time and time again over the events of this awful tradegy.......

 

but i really do think that Liverpool supporters ( they KNOW who they are) who arrived late and/or drunk/ticketless should hold their hands up and admit that they were at least a portion of the factors that led to this loss of life.

 

SYP were not wholly responsible for the disaster, yeah they may have (well did) make mistakes...but hey come on...(some) Liverpool supporters were a contributing factor...and until the day that they ACKNOWLEDGE that fact....there will be no peace for any of them.

 

No matter how many more enquiries...if the "fans" that were OUTSIDE Leppings Lane that day will not admit their "contributory factor" then ther will never be a fair outcome.

 

An added note: I watched again the documentary "HILLSBOROUGH" last night with Ricky Tomlinson in it. Well put together, good acting, a really good docu....BUT...it was all portrayed as LFC fans were good and all the blame on the Police....sorry but the people that died that day WERE all innocent fans, arrived early to enjoy the game........it was THEIR fans that contributed to the disaster

 

 

Until Liverpool FC fans accept this they will never be redeemed

[*_ash_* 88]

Just browsing around found this, which I hadn't heard before.

 

from 5min30sec

 

.. for anyone that hasn't heard it before.

 

Out of interest, has anyone got any links to written confirmation, by any Liverpool supporters who were in the ground and ticketless?

 

I've seen plenty from people with tickets but un-checked.

[BananaSplit 10]

Very interesting.

 

Purely because when the Police issued immediate statements, they were found to be incorrect.

 

So surely, following the same logic, any reports made by a frenzied football journalist in the heat of the moment could be equally deemed incorrect?

 

Surely the same logic applies?

 

Surely?

 

Oh, but are the Jfor96 now deeming that reporters report as solid and accurate...?

 

Somehow that journalist had a much better immediate report than any police officer did......?

 

As I keep saying, lets have the WHOLE truth, and not just selective bits of it.

[*_ash_* 88]

Very interesting.

 

Purely because when the Police issued immediate statements, they were found to be incorrect.

 

So surely, following the same logic, any reports made by a frenzied football journalist in the heat of the moment could be equally deemed incorrect?

 

Surely the same logic applies?

 

Surely?

 

Oh, but are the Jfor96 now deeming that reporters report as solid and accurate...?

 

Somehow that journalist had a much better immediate report than any police officer did......?

 

As I keep saying, lets have the WHOLE truth, and not just selective bits of it.

 

It's such a difficult thing to work out.

 

I posted earlier that I've been in every individual situation with regards to the many on that day, but when I think about it [and I haven't editted it to correct myself], I've never been a ticketless fan to an all ticket game.

 

I've been drunk at loads of games (especially big games), as many fans probably have. Had I tried to get in late that day, under those same circumstances, as a fan, and a ticketless one, would I feel like I'd got blood on my hands?

 

Probably.

[DIVA 10]

So...the "them and us" mentality is still with us in Sheffield then.

 

So what if some of the fans had been drinking? Does that mean they are to blame for the deaths of their fellow supporters? Of course it doesn't. Does it mean they should have been denied adequate medical provision? Does it mean that they should be treated inhumanely? SYP and SWFC had a duty to ensure that fans did not die.

 

If some of the fans were so drunk that they were a danger to others, they should have been turned away before they got to the gates/turnstiles - by effective policing. The police had a duty to ensure fans were safe.

 

I feel very sad that not only did our city let those innocent victims down and their families 20 years ago but also that some of us feel it's still appropriate to apportion blame to the fans for the deaths. Yes, I'm sure some were intoxicated - it would be a miracle if not, seeing as every match I go to there's a fair few but the police up and down the country have dealt with this week in and week out for years without such a tragedy. They were paying customers for heavens sake. They paid to see a football match - a proportion of this was probably paid to ensure their safety. To say they were let down badly by our city is a bit of an understatement. I'm sure the police did not want the outcome and many were deeply affected but haven't they had their compensation, and with that, public recognition that they had been victims of a tragedy? How much more do you think the fans and families have suffered? And let's face it, the fans paid to be there, they were not being paid to be there to do a job.

 

It's a terrible injustice that must be put right.

 

Duckenfield was wrong, he lied and he should at least apologise. If he hadn't been in Sheffield that long, and had no experience of managing a match of such proportion, why is the buck stopping there? Who appointed Duckenfield and thought he had sufficient experience to police the match on that day?

 

So, if it's been actioned for all the documents to be seen now, when does the public get to see them?

 

I've put up with being pushed over and crushed into pens and being sworn at and insulted by the police and genuinely been treated like an animal, merely for being a football fan. I have had to step on to the pitch before for fear of my own safety due to crushing. Thanks to the Taylor Report things have definitely improved but whilst the Hillsborough Families are still fighting for justice, it's a travesty for football fans everywhere.

[mrplodge 10]

Large number of factors all coming together to cause this tragedy. The reason in my view that people bring this up is that there seems to be the attempt to blame the police 100% and totally ignore other factors which clearly did have an impact. There are still attempts to get more blame on the police who clearly were at fault but decisions were made at the time with hindsight everyone is so clever. If a number of people had been killed outside due to the crush we would debating why the gates werent opened. No one police or otherwise wanted this to happen it really is time to move on.

[*bobstar* 10]

So...the "them and us" mentality is still with us in Sheffield then.

 

Not in everyones opinion. Some are trying to look at this objectively. I dont see this as a Sheffield v Liverpool, fans v police fight at all.

 

So what if some of the fans had been drinking? Does that mean they are to blame for the deaths of their fellow supporters? Of course it doesn't. Does it mean they should have been denied adequate medical provision? Does it mean that they should be treated inhumanely? SYP and SWFC had a duty to ensure that fans did not die.

 

If some of the fans were so drunk that they were a danger to others, they should have been turned away before they got to the gates/turnstiles - by effective policing. The police had a duty to ensure fans were safe.

 

Exactly so what if some of the fans had been drinking. It means nothing. I havent got the impression from this thread that they are to blame for the deaths of their fellow supporters. I dont think ANYONE has said this on the thread. What people are actually saying is that there are many contributing factors and fans behaviour (either drunk or sober) is one factor within the whole picture - nothing more and nothing less.

 

I feel very sad that not only did our city let those innocent victims down and their families 20 years ago but also that some of us feel it's still appropriate to apportion blame to the fans for the deaths.......To say they were let down badly by our city is a bit of an understatement.

 

By saying they were let down by the city of Sheffield creates more them and us views IMO. I dont think Sheffield as a City let them down. Many people/organisations etc within Sheffield were helpful and did their upmost and did as much as they could.

 

It's a terrible injustice that must be put right.

 

How do you propose this is done? If this is Sheffield as a City to blame do you want Sheffield to provide some sort of compensation. If so, how? Will and apology from the City Council be enough? Will an apology from the people of Sheffield be enough?

 

Duckenfield was wrong, he lied and he should at least apologise. If he hadn't been in Sheffield that long, and had no experience of managing a match of such proportion, why is the buck stopping there? Who appointed Duckenfield and thought he had sufficient experience to police the match on that day?

 

So, if it's been actioned for all the documents to be seen now, when does the public get to see them?

 

The problem is where does the buck stop. You cannot blame who appointed Duckefield surely.....when interviewing for a post you have to use your judgement as noone knows how someone will perform in a post until they actually do it. Its ideas that blame should be spreading further like this that makes me think that justice will never be acceptable to the people that want it. It could go on forever. Who appointed Duckenfield, blame them, who appointed the appointees, blame them etc etc. The buck could go on forever.

 

The families want justice. I feel that lots of people jumping on the bandwagon want a different type of justice. By all means, yes, lets see all the documents. I dont think these will answer all the questions, probably just create new ones which will never be answered.

Edited April 18, 2009 by *bobstar*

[Tooeg 10]

pot - kettle - black

 

Off the subject

My mums eloquent adaptation of that well known saying would have been

Pot - Kettle - Grimey Arse

[Frank Sidney 11]

Large number of factors all coming together to cause this tragedy. The reason in my view that people bring this up is that there seems to be the attempt to blame the police 100% and totally ignore other factors which clearly did have an impact. There are still attempts to get more blame on the police who clearly were at fault but decisions were made at the time with hindsight everyone is so clever. If a number of people had been killed outside due to the crush we would debating why the gates werent opened. No one police or otherwise wanted this to happen it really is time to move on.

 

I think the Taylor Report said that the major influence was blunders by the Police. I don't think a new enquiry will find any different.

 

The families are wanting another enquiry for what happenned during and after I think. Most of them were not even at the match. They deserve some satisfaction that the discraceful way they were treated, because they were Liverpudlian, is not ignored.

 

The mechanics of what went wrong are well documented, the causes are always going to be an emotional debate.

 

There is the issue of where all the black propogander came from that was reported in the press? Who are the people who claimed such things? Let them stand up and be counted? Where they maliciously leaked to make others look less guilty? What about the way the dead and injured were treated like bits of meat? What about the way the berieved were interegated?

 

The issue has not been looked at properly. As I said the mechanics are there for all to see. Now lets look at the other issues which still burn as deep today as they did 20 years ago.

[pininsho 10]

I don't think I've read a more naive post on this entire thread!

 

So...the "them and us" mentality is still with us in Sheffield then.

 

I don't think so. At least no more than it is in Liverpool.

 

So what if some of the fans had been drinking? Does that mean they are to blame for the deaths of their fellow supporters? Of course it doesn't.

 

If it can be proved that as a direct result of a group of fans drinking/being drunk that this led to the death of other fans then I'm afraid it does mean that they would be to blame in the eyes of the law. However the TR didn't find this to be the case and made the conclusion that drunken fans were just a 'contributary factor' as the number of drunken fans couldn't be accurately measured. He made this decision after ruling the evidence given by hundreds of local people inadmissable because of their perceived prejudice of the Liverpool supporters.

However if you saw what I saw on that day outside the ground you could come to no conclusion other than the fact that a large number of drunken fans (but not only drunken fans) and their irresponsible behaviour was the underlying cause of the disaster and for that reason they have to hold their hands up and accept a major part of the blame as have all the other organisations that were found to be at fault by the TR.

 

Does it mean they should have been denied adequate medical provision? Does it mean that they should be treated inhumanely? SYP and SWFC had a duty to ensure that fans did not die.

 

Q1/ No

Q2/ No

Q3/ SYP had a duty to maintain public order at this time and not to ensure the H&S of fans. SWFC had no duty to fans as this wasn't an SWFC game other than to ensure the ground came up to H&S standards of the time which, despite it not having an up to date safety certificate from SCC it did.

 

If some of the fans were so drunk that they were a danger to others, they should have been turned away before they got to the gates/turnstiles - by effective policing. The police had a duty to ensure fans were safe.

 

At this time the police did NOT have a duty to ensure the safety of fans. They had a duty to maintain public order.

How do you police fans that are everywhere throughout the city with thousands being in pubs across the entire city from the city centre to Stocksbridge, Wadsley, Oughtibridge, Ecclesfield, Hillsborough, Malin Bridge and numerous other locations from when the pubs opened that morning?

This is why the TR dealt with match day drinking and gave a number of recommendations to alleviate this problem.

 

 

I feel very sad that not only did our city let those innocent victims down and their families 20 years ago but also that some of us feel it's still appropriate to apportion blame to the fans for the deaths. Yes, I'm sure some were intoxicated - it would be a miracle if not, seeing as every match I go to there's a fair few but the police up and down the country have dealt with this week in and week out for years without such a tragedy. They were paying customers for heavens sake. They paid to see a football match - a proportion of this was probably paid to ensure their safety. To say they were let down badly by our city is a bit of an understatement. I'm sure the police did not want the outcome and many were deeply affected but haven't they had their compensation, and with that, public recognition that they had been victims of a tragedy? How much more do you think the fans and families have suffered? And let's face it, the fans paid to be there, they were not being paid to be there to do a job.

 

I see a lot of emotion here......a lot of anger.

However somebody has to look calmly at the facts of the matter and not get carried away by emotional rhetoric.

The fact of the matter is that the police, Notts Forest fans, SWFC, local residents and Sheffield as a whole were all victims as were the majority of law abiding Liverpool fans and of course the 96 who died. The only ones who weren't victims were the ones that were so bladdered that they had no idea what was happening.

 

It's a terrible injustice that must be put right.

 

More rhetoric. Would you care to explain what you mean by this seemingly meaningless comment?

 

Duckenfield was wrong, he lied and he should at least apologise. If he hadn't been in Sheffield that long, and had no experience of managing a match of such proportion, why is the buck stopping there? Who appointed Duckenfield and thought he had sufficient experience to police the match on that day?

 

SYP have apologised for their errors on that day and that alone.

And how do you suggest Duckenfield got experience of dealing with a match of that magnitude without actually doing it. We all have to start somewhere.

 

So, if it's been actioned for all the documents to be seen now, when does the public get to see them?

 

Not sure, but personally I can't wait as long as it is ALL the documents and not just a selection.

 

I've put up with being pushed over and crushed into pens and being sworn at and insulted by the police and genuinely been treated like an animal, merely for being a football fan. I have had to step on to the pitch before for fear of my own safety due to crushing. Thanks to the Taylor Report things have definitely improved but whilst the Hillsborough Families are still fighting for justice, it's a travesty for football fans everywhere.

 

Because at that time a lot of football fans did behave like animals. It took the findings of the TR to bring the game into the civilised world.

Edited April 18, 2009 by pininsho

[BananaSplit 10]

Superb post Pininsho.