Does anybody else feel the same about our Country

[Phanerothyme 12]

Good one!!! Ha ha, thats funny, ha ha ha that really did tickle me. You are a very, very funny person.

Your sarcasm needs work however.

Any reason you chose that particular order?

Yep

Suit your particular political agenda by any chance?

Nope

Please, how can the question be vague and imprecise?

 

Out of all the CURRENT attrocities and wars etc. How many of them as a percentage involve Muslims? - no opinions, just FACTS.

 

Like that: you make it seem so easy.

 

What do you mean by conflict, atrocities etc. Try not to be so vague. What do you mean by involve muslims. Try not to be so imprecise.

[shims 10]

No, i have to disagree.

 

Being called a racist is a derogatory term and implies many negative connotations. Being called liberal or leftie is neither.

 

The LIBERAL democrats are a LEFT-wing political party. There is no negative connotations associated with that, if you feel it is demeaning to be a liberal then that is personal issue. It is not name calling anymore than being called a Sheffielder is.

It would be easier to take someone seriously if they used the term "left-wing" or "leftist".

[shims 10]

Its interesting that your post relates solely to Aryan's being the racists, you also mention that they are 'Brits' and insinuate a Norse connection.

Also your advice you attempt to pull down the 'Aryans' and promote 'darker-skinned' people, you say that many of the 'darker-skinned people are 'physically superior' to the racists that you identify as white and British. You insinuate they will be not only racist but also homophobic, whilst being interested in having realtionship with another man despite being married.

 

To be honest your post stinks of racist and homophobic connotations. Any reason for that or just slip of the tongue? Are you sure that YOU are not slightly racist? Just a bit?

 

Judging by your post and the propaganda you have on your signature of everypost you make urging us to 'boycott Israel' id say you have a problem with Christianity and Aryans. Ill refrain from calling you a racist Shims as that is your trump card not mine. We play an entirely different game.

 

I'm surprised that you are so interested in that post, 'judithjones'. It was blatantly tongue-in-cheek and in response to another such post earlier ... but then you'll have noticed that SINCE I QUOTED IT! Tongue-in-cheek or not, there are some references to reality there: a high profile married BNP member having a gay relationship with a senior nazi (Mr.G & Mr.W), an NF councillor having a black mistress, the continuous and malicious reprinting of the bogus document "The Protocols of The Elders Of Zion".

 

I assume the poster I was responding to is a white Englishman and the neo-fascists do like to refer to themselves as 'Aryans' quite frequently, as well as identifying with Norse mythology hence my references ... Nick Griffin is quite fond of the runes ...

 

Oh, and YES: to put your mind at rest, I'm quite sure that I'm not racist.

 

Please explain why I have a problem with Christianity?

 

"Ill refrain from calling you a racist Shims as that is your trump card not mine. We play an entirely different game."

 

Why, thank you, 'judithjones'! Seems reasonable, since I haven't called you anything.

Calling people racist is not my trump card ... quote my posts where I have called anyone racist, please!

 

Oh ... nearly forgot! This accusation you made:

Lots of bigots calling others racist

Quote these too while you're at it! It's good to back these things up, don't you think?

Edited March 5, 2009 by shims
Makes some of them feel like they missed something! (typo) ;)

[boyfriday 21]

Personally I'm quite proud to be called either a liberal or a lefty. I'm not ashamed of my political views. So please, feel free to label me!

 

That's fine if the label I choose to append to you fits and I dont use it to trivialise what you say!

 

For example, your views appear to be right wing, but if from now on I trotted out the facile statment that you're a neo Nazi or facist, that would clearly be an attempt to derail your argument, rather than addressing it.

[boyfriday 21]

You're trying to twist the argument now because you're sneering remark about morris dancing as British culture has been highlighted for what it is.

 

And it's not surprising that the only positive thing about British culture you now claim to be highlighting is morris dancing whereas in another post you list bear baiting, dog fighting, slave trade, child labour - none of which are mainstream modern British culture.

 

I would view mainstream modern British culture as including:

 

- a passion for spectator sports (football, rugby, cricket, boxing)

 

- a passion for participant sports (football, running, hiking, hobby fishing)

 

- a diverse and innovative music scene - in particular British music subcultures such as indie, trip-hop, dance, punk

 

- pub culture (including pool, darts)

 

- club culture

 

- TV - especially soaps, nature programmes

 

- quirky, self-deprecating, slapstick, surreal comedies / humour

 

- home-owning, and with that, gardening, BBQs

 

- pets - especially dogs and cats

 

- a love of 'The Seaside' and the 'Countryside' - days out and holidays

 

- a love of 'foreign' foods and the socialising that comes with it - going out for a curry or chinese, staying in with a pizza etc

 

- a love of traditional British foods - fish and chips, english breakfast, eating a Sunday roast together, again usually always with socialising

 

- Christian / Celtic-Pagan rooted festivities - Christmas, Easter etc where families get together

 

- British cinema - still quite distinct from Hollywood

 

- a thriving theatre scene

 

- regional identities - accents, local music scenes, local histories etc

 

- charity work

 

- hard work, a general sense of optimism that if you work hard, get educated then you'll get on

 

- free speech - heated political debate, distrust of people who are percieved to hold too much power

 

- freedom of religion - the tendency to regard religion as a personal matter

 

- individualism

 

- a value placed on rational inquiry as a way of understanding the world, stemming from Chrisitian deism

 

- a value placed on science

 

- a sense of a shared British narrative / experience - shaped primarily by WW1 and WW2

 

- coffee-shop culture

 

- a sense of morality (although less so in recent years)

 

Now clearly, this is not entirely representative of British culture - it is simply my perspective.

 

And I accept that there are aspects of British culture that are not desirable - these include binge drinking, the hooliganism that has often come with football, the long hours people work, increasing consumerism, the trivialisation of current affairs by the media etc.

 

And I'd also state that British culture has clearly been enriched and changed for the better by aspects of culture that has arrived here with Asian, Afro-Carribean and Continental European immigration.

 

My contribution on this thread is not so much to defend a romanticised view of a Celtic / Anglo-Saxon British culture - far from it- but I do question self-professed liberals such as yourself, because I think what you dress up as liberalism (and multi-culturalism, tolerance) is in fact a very specific, narrow minded political agenda that at times proves to be intolerant and destructive.

 

What aspects of the above have immigrants not engaged with, changed or not had an appreciation of? If you recall an earlier poster made a sensational reference to immigrants denouncing our traditions and culture, personally I couldnt think of an example.

[boyfriday 21]

Ok, fair comment.

 

To be honest though you said why would any racist care about being called a racist, in the same respect why would someone care about assumptions on their political stance? being racist is illegal, voting right or left wing is not

 

It wasnt a personal view, I was trying to highlight the paradox of your argument about name calling and intolerance.

 

I find it ironic that you say polical opinions are irrelevant and then you make a big deal about the polical stance assumptions i have made.

 

Political opinions aren't irrelevant, but making assumptions and generalisations about peoples views are.

As I said, it derails the debate, and this adequately illustrates the point, since the last page and a half has been taken up with people addressing this issue rather than the OP, which you have only latterly come to reflect upon in agreement with another poster.

[PeoplesVoice 10]

For example, your views appear to be right wing, but if from now on I trotted out the facile statment that you're a neo Nazi or facist, that would clearly be an attempt to derail your argument, rather than addressing it.

 

Right wing? Well I suppose opposition to all forms of capitalist exploitation, a commitment to nationalise Water, Gas, Electricity, the railways and the Bank of England, dismantling the stock exchange and building more council houses is 'right wing' then you can call me Maggie Thatcher!

[boyfriday 21]

Right wing? Well I suppose opposition to all forms of capitalist exploitation, a commitment to nationalise Water, Gas, Electricity, the railways and the Bank of England, dismantling the stock exchange and building more council houses is 'right wing' then you can call me Maggie Thatcher!

 

..and again that's the point I'm making, I said 'appear' right wing, it's a notional and superficial judgement, that's why during the course of a debate I would never describe you as such because generally peoples real views are 3 dimensional and cannot be described in such a way and if they are, we only get into an argument where the accused gives reasons why the label doesn't fit (see below).

 

Ironically I suspect judithjones, includes me in her 'lefties' description, yet I've always been a business owner, and whilst not a Thatcher fan did support the denationalisation of the major utilities, free enterprise and believe in strictly controlled immigration policies.

[Santiago 10]

What aspects of the above have immigrants not engaged with, changed or not had an appreciation of? If you recall an earlier poster made a sensational reference to immigrants denouncing our traditions and culture, personally I couldnt think of an example.

 

I never stated that people from new communities hadn't engaged with all aspects of British culture. Nor have I stated that people from new communities have denounced British traditions and culture.

 

Why are you assuming I have these views?

 

Seeing as you ask, I would say that 'new Britons' have by and large engaged with British tradition and culture since the 50s - and greatly enriched it.

 

It's only in the last decade or so that it seems some of the children of those who migrated here in 50s, 60s and 70s have started actively rejecting British culture and seeking to supplant it. And yes, I would argue that the predominant ideology now shaping this hostility is Islamism.

 

However, this is not necessarily the fault of the British Muslim community - but rather, a number of other factors.

 

For a start, we should look to the multi-culturalist agenda that has sought to erode mainstream British culture and actively change it into something else - and in doing so, has created a little more than a vacuum / lack of confidence to celebrate our existing culture.

 

This combined with long-term socio-economic deprivation (brought on by the Thatcher years), results in a great opportunity for Islamism and other forms of extremism to fill the void. They provide a sense of collective identity / sense of a shared narrative and purpose.

 

There is also I think the influence of Saudi Arabia - I've read numerous reports of them funding Wahhabi mosques in Britain. And it's not just here but across Europe. In Bosnia today they say the distinct culture amongst Muslims is being actively changed through Wahhabi influence.

 

I would also add that the Black and White underclass which now exists in our cities is as much a victim of these factors as disengaged British Muslims. Except that the ideology filling the vaccum in these groups is all too often the BNP or an Americanised gang culture.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Santiago

[boyfriday 21]

I never stated that people from new communities hadn't engaged with all aspects of British culture. Nor have I stated that people from new communities have denounced British traditions and culture.

 

Why are you assuming I have these views?

 

I didnt assume you did, in my post I mentioned 'an earlier poster', but you previously commented about my morris dancing reference, and it was that poster I was responding to for the reasons described.

Seeing as you ask, I would say that 'new Britons' have by and large engaged with British tradition and culture since the 50s - and greatly enriched it.

 

It's only in the last decade or so that it seems some of the children of those who migrated here in 50s, 60s and 70s have started actively rejecting British culture and seeking to supplant it. And yes, I would argue that the predominant ideology now shaping this hostility is Islamism.

 

I've talked about this before and most certainly the 2nd & 3rd generation of immigrants struggle with their 'identity'. It was apparent with those from the Carribean in the 70's with the riots that took place in major cities, and now with some Muslim youth who are further alienated, and alienate themselves from the host culture, which they seem to either over embrace the worst aspects of, or reject and affiliate with fundemental aspects of their native culture. I believe some indigenous youth find the BNP attractive for similar reasons.

 

However, this is not necessarily the fault of the British Muslim community - but rather, a number of other factors.

 

For a start, we should look to the multi-culturalist agenda that has sought to erode mainstream British culture and actively change it into something else - and in doing so, has created a little more than a vacuum / lack of confidence to celebrate our existing culture.

Well i have to say I disagree Santiago. You helpfully provided a comprehensive list in an attempt to identify the features of British culture and traditions (forgive me for paraphrasing). From my own experiences, most if not all of those have been embraced and certainly not challenged by immigrant communities. I wont go into detail, but I see startling similarities in that list and the things I find enhancing in my own life

This combined with long-term socio-economic deprivation (brought on by the Thatcher years), results in a great opportunity for Islamism and other forms of extremism to fill the void. They provide a sense of collective identity / sense of a shared narrative and purpose.

Yes, totally agree with that, as I inferred above.

There is also I think the influence of Saudi Arabia - I've read numerous reports of them funding Wahhabi mosques in Britain. And it's not just here but across Europe. In Bosnia today they say the distinct culture amongst Muslims is being actively changed through Wahhabi influence.

 

Any form of extremism, whether religious or political needs to be watched carefully, but Im very much of the live and let live mindset. Islam (and Chrisitianity), influence many millions of people, the UK is notionally a Christian country and Muslims are very much in the minority, although probably actively observe its teachings in higher proportions than the average British Christian.

 

Personally Islam has had no influence on my life whatsoever, they dont come door knocking trying to convert me, they dont broadcast religious programmes on mainstream tv, my kids aren't forced to attend Islamic assemblies at school, or eat Halal meat, they havent demanded that Xmas is banned and Sharia law has no bearing on my life...but fear not, if any of these issues was ever to seriously challenge the British traditions that I support and engage in, then I'll be rabble rousing from the roof tops with the best of 'em.

 

I would also add that the white underclass which now exists in our cities is as much a victim of these factors as disengaged British Muslims.

I should have read all your post before I replied to it, yes agree totally with that, see above.

[Santiago 10]

Santago:

However, this is not necessarily the fault of the British Muslim community - but rather, a number of other factors.

 

For a start, we should look to the multi-culturalist agenda that has sought to erode mainstream British culture and actively change it into something else - and in doing so, has created a little more than a vacuum / lack of confidence to celebrate our existing culture.

 

Boy Friday:

Well i have to say I disagree Santiago. You helpfully provided a comprehensive list in an attempt to identify the features of British culture and traditions (forgive me for paraphrasing). From my own experiences, most if not all of those have been embraced and certainly not challenged by immigrant communities. I wont go into detail, but I see startling similarities in that list and the things I find enhancing in my own life

 

I would qualify that statement - it is not the 'new Britons' that I believe are pursuing an aggressive multi-culturalist agenda and seeking to erode British culture. Rather, it is a group of white middle and upper class elite, who generally self-identify as liberal / centre-left (although wrongly. I believe).

 

Indeed, ithere is a rational argument to say 'new Britons' are often the most pro-British culture - or historically have been. By the simply act of migrating here, they have signalled a desire to be part of British society.

 

I should also qualify my statement about Islam. I am certainly not against mainstream British Islam - but the Wahhabi influence, and other Islamist sects, are a threat.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5810936.ece (Dr T. Hargey's letter provides a useful insight into this debate)

[leviathan13 348]

So even though I'm English, born and bred in Sheffield, lived here all my life, support a football team from the city where I come from, speak with a Yorkshire accent and am white - I have to live somewhere else just because I don't belive in the invisible man = God?

 

All I'm hearing is that you're a religious nut job!