The interminable God does/doesn't exist megathread - part 2

[Little Buzz 10]

You still have a choice, even if God is aware of what choice you will make. Judas did have free will. Someone had to betray Jesus yes, but they had to CHOOSE to betray him.

 

So mankind as a whole didn't / doesn't have free will?

[Fivetide 10]

So mankind as a whole didn't / doesn't have free will?

 

Not at all... I said we do have free will, and that Judas also had free will. If God knows what decisions we will make, they are still our decisions to make. If a child sees some sweets on the table, the parent probably knows what decision the child will make re the taking of the sweets. It is still the child's choice though eh?

[Little Buzz 10]

But if someone had to do what Judas did then looking at the human race as a whole, we didn't have free will - we had to do it because it was written in the scriptures that we would.

[Mercenary 10]

Not at all... I said we do have free will, and that Judas also had free will. If God knows what decisions we will make, they are still our decisions to make. If a child sees some sweets on the table, the parent probably knows what decision the child will make re the taking of the sweets. It is still the child's choice though eh?

 

But the parent can't be 100% sure. If God is 100% sure and knowledgeable about future events then we only have the illusion of free will as everything is already pre-destined.

[Grahame 10]

So mankind as a whole didn't / doesn't have free will?

 

Don't you think that Judas' betrayal of Jesus indicates our human nature about which the Bible repeatedly says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:” [Jer 17:9]

 

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[leviathan13 349]

Don't you think that Judas' betrayal of Jesus indicates our human nature about which the Bible repeatedly says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:” [Jer 17:9]

 

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Yet, you say we should take Jesus in to our hearts. If you loved Him, why take Him to such a horrid place?

[Grahame 10]

Yet, you say we should take Jesus in to our hearts. If you loved Him, why take Him to such a horrid place?

 

"The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." [1 John 1:7]

 

http://www.dokimos.org/blood.html

 

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[Little Buzz 10]

Don't you think that Judas' betrayal of Jesus indicates our human nature about which the Bible repeatedly says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:” [Jer 17:9]

 

OT again Grahame - how do you know that isn't a bit made up by the Pharisees?

 

Judas betrayal was pre-determined - the scriptures said it would happen - so he had no free will.

 

You claim your god knows everything - it's a massive claim, but if you insist on it then you must also accept that everything is predetermined.

 

If you also insist 'the heart is deceitful' then would you care to speculate why your god made it that way - or allowed it so easily to become that way?

[Grahame 10]

OT again Grahame - how do you know that isn't a bit made up by the Pharisees?

 

Judas betrayal was pre-determined - the scriptures said it would happen - so he had no free will.

 

You claim your god knows everything - it's a massive claim, but if you insist on it then you must also accept that everything is predetermined.

 

If you also insist 'the heart is deceitful' then would you care to speculate why your god made it that way - or allowed it so easily to become that way?

 

I quoted from the Old Testament because that is your main weapon of choice against Christianity and I want to show you that the same themes run through the whole Bible. You will find the same message in the New Testament because it is of God and not of man or the Pharisees.

 

Regarding free will or free choice, no one can force you to love your wife and no one can force your wife to love you. Love comes from the heart and is freely given of our own free will. Christ first loved us and gave His life for us that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

 

The fact we throw His offer of salvation back in his face shows how ungrateful we are. His love is freely given and we are free to accept Him into our lives if we want and not because we are either forced into it or because we have no choice.

 

God's love is freely offered and waiting to be reciprocated. His great love for us is made manifest in that we were made free rather than being under bondage as in some situations of man's making where people have their freedom of choice taken away and are forced into situations where they do not want to be. This is the opposite of being in a place where love abounds which enables us to make our own choices of our own free will.

 

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[Little Buzz 10]

Regarding free will or free choice, no one can force you to love your wife and no one can force your wife to love you. Love comes from the heart and is freely given of our own free will. Christ first loved us and gave His life for us that we might have life and have it more abundantly.

 

We're not talking about people being forced to do things though, Grahame.

 

We're talking about the fact that an omniscient god - by definition - knows everything that will ever happen, so we have no free will. Your beliefs must lead you to conclude that everything is pre-determined - unless you are prepared to concede that your god isn't omniscient?

[Grahame 10]

We're not talking about people being forced to do things though, Grahame.

 

We're talking about the fact that an omniscient god - by definition - knows everything that will ever happen, so we have no free will. Your beliefs must lead you to conclude that everything is pre-determined - unless you are prepared to concede that your god isn't omniscient?

 

I am glad you accept that no one is being forced to do anything.

 

Being all knowing may mean we can forecast the weather but it doesn’t mean we can change it. God knows us better than we do ourselves but it doesn’t mean he controls us. Knowing and dictating are two different things and you have just admitted that we are not forced into anything.

 

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[Little Buzz 10]

Being all knowing may mean we can forecast the weather but it doesn’t mean we can change it. God knows us better than we do ourselves but it doesn’t mean he controls us. Knowing and dictating are two different things.

 

He's not omnipotent, then?