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Is anyone else sick of the de Menezes case?

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The fact remains that no matter how well you train people, no matter how high the standards(without letting them slip) there will be mistakes. You do everything you possibly can to minimise those mistakes, but it is not possible to foresee every challenge and to predict every outcome - life’s not like that.

 

But thats just where your argument falls down because they didnt do eveything they could. thats the whole reason why people are up in arms. They didnt research their target, they didnt give the people with the guns photographs, they didnt stop him getting on 2 buses, they didnt have any reason to think he was their target other than he lived in the same block of flats. None of all that was a 'mistake' - it was blatant incompetance.

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Originally Posted by Blondi

For attempted cover-up, there is no excuse - I will not defend that.

But, you cannot expect the Police to have perfect information and make perfect decisions every time. Mistakes are made, and sometimes - regrettably - they can be tragic mistakes. That's part of life, thankfully rare, but we have to accept it sometimes happens.

Why arrogance? I’m just saying that there is no such thing as perfection.

 

I know how high those standards are - Police firearms units are very, very highly trained, I know because I've organised exchange visits between their firearms teams and teams I've worked with wearing a military uniform, not from watching the Sweeney. You, I know, will accuse me of being a liar or dreamer for saying this, but I don't give a stuff. Until you have been in a situation where you have a loaded weapon in a tense environment with your heart pumping at close to 200 beats a minute and adrenaline pumping - which will happen no matter what the training - you will never comprehend what pressure those guys are under, or how very easy it is to get something wrong when they have split seconds to make massive decisions.

 

The fact remains that no matter how well you train people, no matter how high the standards(without letting them slip) there will be mistakes. You do everything you possibly can to minimise those mistakes, but it is not possible to foresee every challenge and to predict every outcome - life’s not like that.

 

Good post...but I wasn't arguing that. I was arguing that mistakes (killing someone) shouldn't be accepted...NEVER!

 

If you read post 151 you'll find that that poster hit the nail on the head.

 

The fact that you've insinuated that I read your post and thought "liar" is enough to make me suspicious (you planted that one) anyway. Just because you've been behind the cross hairs doesn't make you all knowing...just as those that haven't.

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For attempted cover-up, there is no excuse - I will not defend that.

 

But, you cannot expect the Police to have perfect information and make perfect decisions every time. Mistakes are made, and sometimes - regrettably - they can be tragic mistakes. That's part of life, thankfully rare, but we have to accept it sometimes happens.

 

No we don't have to accept it! No, No, No! We want the truth...some of us anyway.

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Good post...but I wasn't arguing that. I was arguing that mistakes (killing someone) shouldn't be accepted...NEVER!

 

If you read post 151 you'll find that that poster hit the nail on the head.

 

The fact that you've insinuated that I read your post and thought "liar" is enough to make me suspicious (you planted that one) anyway. Just because you've been behind the cross hairs doesn't make you all knowing...just as those that haven't.

Some good points in 151.

As to the crosshairs thing, nobody is all-knowing, but my career has kept me in close proximity with firearms and their use for a lot of years.

 

An analogy here. I'm not a football fan - I know one thing about football, and that's that I can't stand it. For that reason, I would enter a discussion on football and express my distaste for the crowd problems and the congestion matches casue, and the negative role models that the players make, but I would not debate football issues with a footballer and think that just because he's not all-knowing about his sport I have as much idea as he does. Is that fair?

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But thats just where your argument falls down because they didnt do eveything they could. thats the whole reason why people are up in arms. They didnt research their target, they didnt give the people with the guns photographs, they didnt stop him getting on 2 buses, they didnt have any reason to think he was their target other than hthe lived in the same block of flats. None of all that was a 'mistake' - it was blatant incompetance.

 

The cover-up sure wasn't a mistake...that's the crime...and a continuing planned one.

 

Up until the met realized the whole operation was a ****-up on a monumental scale they then turned their fiasco into a lie...hence a crime.

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The cover-up sure wasn't a mistake...that's the crime...and a continuing planned one.

 

Up until the met realized the whole operation was a ****-up on a monumental scale they then turned their fiasco into a lie...hence a crime.

On that I may, not even reluctantly, have to agree.

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Some good points in 151.

As to the crosshairs thing, nobody is all-knowing, but my career has kept me in close proximity with firearms and their use for a lot of years.

 

An analogy here. I'm not a football fan - I know one thing about football, and that's that I can't stand it. For that reason, I would enter a discussion on football and express my distaste for the crowd problems and the congestion matches casue, and the negative role models that the players make, but I would not debate football issues with a footballer and think that just because he's not all-knowing about his sport I have as much idea as he does. Is that fair?

 

'Blondi' the analogy is nowhere near similar! The displeasure that crowds cause or matchday traffic causes is nowhere near along the lines of a man being killed by the Met... Or are you trying to tell us that you are someway involved in the armed police? Perhaps even within the Met? Because (if) you're a copper, does that make you have a more mindful opinion?

 

If it does, you'll be familiar with the difference between 'belief' and 'suspicion'.....

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'Blondi' the analogy is nowhere near similar! The displeasure that crowds cause or matchday traffic causes is nowhere near along the lines of a man being killed by the Met... Or are you trying to tell us that you are someway involved in the armed police? Perhaps even within the Met? Because (if) you're a copper, does that make you have a more mindful opinion?

If it does, you'll be familiar with the difference between 'belief' and 'suspicion'.....

The analogy was on the level of relevant knowledge I have. As I posted earlier I'm not a copper but have been in the armed forces and worked with Police firearms teams. I've trained with them and know how very, very highly trained and professional they are.

That's why when people are shouting incompetence they fail to realise that it will have been absolute bedlam for the police that week. Many of them will have had little sleep for days, they'll have been dealing with masses of conflicting reports and will have been desperately trying to sift through information to get to a position where they had half as much solid know good data as we are now able to consider. Yes, it was a cluster - they weren’t ready for the scale of atrocity or for the level of response that was needed.

 

Thing is, who would have been? Can we damn them for being presented with a gigantic problem and an almost impossible task and being swamped by it - they don't have infinite resources and they are only human.

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On that I may, not even reluctantly, have to agree.

 

 

Thank you.

 

I also agree that mistakes can be made, but under these circumstances they can never be overlooked and no stone left unturned. That's the duty of the Met and the presiding investigators through our demands as citizens.

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The analogy was on the level of relevant knowledge I have. As I posted earlier I'm not a copper but have been in the armed forces and worked with Police firearms teams. I've trained with them and know how very, very highly trained and professional they are.

That's why when people are shouting incompetence they fail to realise that it will have been absolute bedlam for the police that week. Many of them will have had little sleep for days, they'll have been dealing with masses of conflicting reports and will have been desperately trying to sift through information to get to a position where they had half as much solid know good data as we are now able to consider. Yes, it was a cluster - they weren’t ready for the scale of atrocity or for the level of response that was needed.

 

Thing is, who would have been? Can we damn them for being presented with a gigantic problem and an almost impossible task and being swamped by it - they don't have infinite resources and they are only human.

 

 

I have to say that yes I do condemn them. I don't care for how little sleep they had or conflicting info they received.....

Whens all said and done, when you are given permission to stick 7 bullets in someones head without doing any solid background research, 'belief' and 'suspicion' become important legal terms.

Half of what you say - bedlam, conflicting reports - is exactly why exact knowledge was needed.

I'm off to bed now and although I respect your respectful replies, I cannot agree with them.

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I have to say that yes I do condemn them. I don't care for how little sleep they had or conflicting info they received.....

Whens all said and done, when you are given permission to stick 7 bullets in someones head without doing any solid background research, 'belief' and 'suspicion' become important legal terms.

Half of what you say - bedlam, conflicting reports - is exactly why exact knowledge was needed.

I'm off to bed now and although I respect your respectful replies, I cannot agree with them.

 

Amen, ContraryMary.

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Amen, ContraryMary.

Didnt you read Blondis post,the man has used firearms and has worked with the police in matters of weapons ,dont you at least think he has an insight into the pressures the Police officers were under, and your agreeing with contrarymary against him,I bet you nor her have never seen a gun other than a cap pistol,never mind touch one, so how the hell can you possibly understand anybody who is thrust into a life of death situation is beyond any kind of understanding.

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