Science Fiction

[SnailyBoy 10]

1 hour ago, Cyclone said:

You're confusing not believing the claim and not believing the fact of what is claimed.

 

I can disbelieve you, or I can disbelieve the thing, these are different.  If I disbelieve the thing (and it's binary) then I believe the opposite.  If I disbelieve your claim, then I simply reject that you have the answer, and I believe that you don't have the answer.  Rejecting your claim does not put me in a position of having rejected or believed whatever it was that you claimed.

It's the difference between, I don't believe that the number of marbles is odd, and I don't believe that you know that the number of marbles is odd.

 

Semantics is massively important here.

You're trying to make this unbelievably complicated.

 

The number of marbles is either odd or even.....agreed?

 

A claim is made that the number of marbles is odd. That claim hasn't been demonstrated to be true, so the claim is rejected, I don't believe the number is odd.

 

Does that mean I do believe that the number of marbles is even?

 

It's a simple yes or no answer.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by SnailyBoy

[Cyclone 10]

The reality of the number of marbles is entirely separate from the claim that someone knows whether there is an even or odd number of marbles, do you not agree?

 

The question you are asking me to answer is not related to the hypothetical proposition, that's why I'm unable to answer it.  If you can't see the difference between a claim to know and the reality of a thing then that is why we constantly disagree on this subject.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Cyclone

[SnailyBoy 10]

1 hour ago, Cyclone said:

The reality of the number of marbles is entirely separate from the claim that someone knows whether there is an even or odd number of marbles, do you not agree?

 

The question you are asking me to answer is not related to the hypothetical proposition, that's why I'm unable to answer it.  If you can't see the difference between a claim to know and the reality of a thing then that is why we constantly disagree on this subject.

No I don't agree, of course it's related to the hypothetical proposition.

 

What should be the default position on the number of marbles being either odd or even?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by SnailyBoy

[Cyclone 10]

You don't think that a claim to knowledge and the reality of a thing aren't different things?  Okay, well, that's definitely why we never agree on this.

 

Default position should be unknown.  Someone making a claim doesn't alter that.  Disbelieve that they have the knowledge, continue to believe that you don't know.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Cyclone

[SnailyBoy 10]

We're not talking about knowledge.

 

You understand knowledge is a subset of belief, right?

Edited April 5, 2019 by SnailyBoy

[Cyclone 10]

I think you're deliberately now missing the point.

 

A claim about something is not the same as the reality of something.

 

The entire hypothetical that you built depends on belief in the claim being the same as belief in the thing.  But they aren't the same.

 

I can disbelief what someone tells me about the odd/even state of marbles without believing or disbelieving any reality about the odd/even state of marbles.

 

It's a rejection of the information they are claiming to have, it isn't a rejection of the state that they were claiming was the true one.

 

______________

Belief...  So, are they now only claiming to believe that the jar has an odd number?  Because previously it was presented as knowing.  Either way, that alters nothing.  You reject their belief as being baseless, the thing that you thus do believe as the opposite is that they don't know the state.  (You can accept that they believe it of course, without accepting that it is true).

 

Amusingly this now illustrates my point again.  If you don't believe that they know, then you do believe the opposite, that they don't know.

If you come out yourself and state that you don't believe that there is an odd number, then by definition you DO believe that there is an even number, because those are the only two possible states.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Cyclone

[SnailyBoy 10]

The only thing you know is the number marbles is are either odd or even, agreed?

 

What's the belief in the 'the thing', ?

[SnailyBoy 10]

5 hours ago, Cyclone said:

I think you're deliberately now missing the point.

 

A claim about something is not the same as the reality of something.

 

The entire hypothetical that you built depends on belief in the claim being the same as belief in the thing.  But they aren't the same.

 

I can disbelief what someone tells me about the odd/even state of marbles without believing or disbelieving any reality about the odd/even state of marbles.

 

It's a rejection of the information they are claiming to have, it isn't a rejection of the state that they were claiming was the true one.

 

______________

Belief...  So, are they now only claiming to believe that the jar has an odd number?  Because previously it was presented as knowing.  Either way, that alters nothing.  You reject their belief as being baseless, the thing that you thus do believe as the opposite is that they don't know the state.  (You can accept that they believe it of course, without accepting that it is true).

 

Amusingly this now illustrates my point again.  If you don't believe that they know, then you do believe the opposite, that they don't know.

If you come out yourself and state that you don't believe that there is an odd number, then by definition you DO believe that there is an even number, because those are the only two possible states.

No, this is where you're way off., it was never claimed as knowing

 

You're rejecting the assertion that the number is odd, it hasn't been demonstrated.

 

Someone could then make the assertion that the number is even, that too would be rejected for the same reason as the first assertion, it hasn't been demonstrated that the number is even.

 

However using your thinking, the number should now be believed that the number is even, having rejected the first assertion that the number is odd, even though it still hasn't been demonstrated to be true.

 

So now, what do you think about the number of marbles, odd or even?

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by SnailyBoy

[FinBak 12]

Odd or Even?....The Correct answer is BOTH..

On 03/04/2019 at 23:10, Obelix said:

Umm no, they dont make up the CMB. The background radiation is of a very specific type - it's a perfect black body at about 2.7K Dying stars, neutron stars with, stellar nurseries all have disticnt spectra unlike a black body.

 

If you were to observe the CMB from farther back in time, or into the future, it's temperature would change. And it would change en masse wherever you looked as it is isotropic.

What are your scientific credentials? It's generally handy to know what level to pitch the explanations at....

 

It also helps us to figure out how much help to give you pick apart some of the cobblers that you are writing.

So can the Big Bang. By exactly the same sorts of instruments...

I understand the Universe and what it's made of.  You can pitch ANY explanation at Me and i would guess i'd have a pretty good idea of what you're on about.

On 05/04/2019 at 07:49, SnailyBoy said:

No, this is where you're way off., it was never claimed as knowing

 

You're rejecting the assertion that the number is odd, it hasn't been demonstrated.

 

Someone could then make the assertion that the number is even, that too would be rejected for the same reason as the first assertion, it hasn't been demonstrated that the number is even.

 

However using your thinking, the number should now be believed that the number is even, having rejected the first assertion that the number is odd, even though it still hasn't been demonstrated to be true.

 

So now, what do you think about the number of marbles, odd or even?

 

 

The answer is BOTH...! I answered this post but it never showed up.!! Blast.

 

[FinBak 12]

On 05/04/2019 at 07:28, SnailyBoy said:

We're not talking about knowledge.

 

You understand knowledge is a subset of belief, right?

Belief-V- Faith-V Science...All Similar things...!

 

Scientific methods HAVE to have a certain amount of Faith.  But it's NOT a Faith position.

 

It's a Scientific one.

[Cyclone 10]

On 05/04/2019 at 07:38, SnailyBoy said:

The only thing you know is the number marbles is are either odd or even, agreed?

 

What's the belief in the 'the thing', ?

You know that one of those states is true, you don't have a belief that it's either one because you are rejecting the claim from the person who says they know (you don't believe them).

On 05/04/2019 at 07:49, SnailyBoy said:

No, this is where you're way off., it was never claimed as knowing

 

You're rejecting the assertion that the number is odd, it hasn't been demonstrated.

 

Someone could then make the assertion that the number is even, that too would be rejected for the same reason as the first assertion, it hasn't been demonstrated that the number is even.

 

However using your thinking, the number should now be believed that the number is even, having rejected the first assertion that the number is odd, even though it still hasn't been demonstrated to be true.

 

So now, what do you think about the number of marbles, odd or even?

 

 

You can keep rejecting assertions from people all day.  That means you don't believe the assertion.  It doesn't mean that you do or do not believe that the number is odd or even.  Belief or not in the assertion is separate from believe in a state of the odd/even ness of the marbles.

[Cyclone 10]

1 hour ago, FinBak said:

Odd or Even?....The Correct answer is BOTH..

I understand the Universe and what it's made of.  You can pitch ANY explanation at Me and i would guess i'd have a pretty good idea of what you're on about.

The answer is BOTH...! I answered this post but it never showed up.!! Blast.

 

Clearly the answer can never be both unless you're actually mad and think that two mutually exclusive things can somehow both be true.