Is a modern woman's place in the home?

[Saff 10]

Indeed. Feminist principles and all that are great but next to the maternal instinct they pale into insignificance. In fact most things pale next to the maternal instinct.

 

I know this is from way back but I'm catching up reading through!

My understanding of feminism is different to this. The version you talk of here suppresses the maternal instinct- this is the exact opposite to feminism in my point of view as it is repressing one of the female's innate drives.

 

My view of feminism is not one in which women are allowed into a man's world, but where the man's world becomes more feminine and embraces the fact that women have children and enables them to combine employment and motherhood without being made to feel they are having allowances made for them. Women may ostensibly have equal access to work, but where the work environment is not very suited for people having children, it is still biased towards men.

[discodown 11]

I know this is from way back but I'm catching up reading through!

My understanding of feminism is different to this. The version you talk of here suppresses the maternal instinct- this is the exact opposite to feminism in my point of view as it is repressing one of the female's innate drives.

 

My view of feminism is not one in which women are allowed into a man's world, but where the man's world becomes more feminine and embraces the fact that women have children and enables them to combine employment and motherhood without being made to feel they are having allowances made for them. Women may ostensibly have equal access to work, but where the work environment is not very suited for people having children, it is still biased towards men.

You've read far too much into it.

 

All I mean is that all your priorities may change after you give birth. You may want to have a career. You might want to combine motherhood and work but the chemical reactions that occur within you and the feelings you have about wanting to be with your child(ren) may overtake that desire and replace it with a more maternal one, as slickwitch found out.

[Cyclone 10]

You've read far too much into it.

 

All I mean is that all your priorities may change after you give birth. You may want to have a career. You might want to combine motherhood and work but the chemical reactions that occur within you and the feelings you have about wanting to be with your child(ren) may overtake that desire and replace it with a more maternal one, as slickwitch found out.

 

Feminism is about having the choice though, rather than having to do as someone else thinks you should.

[metaphoria 10]

Have a look on some of the threads about maternity leave. There are plenty of male small business owners who state outright that they will not hire women who might start a family.

 

OK, I've thought about this one.

 

The personal side of me thinks if I ever became pregnant, I'd consider it a part of life, and I would feel entitled to maternity pay, as this is my right, and these things can happen at unexpected times. Yet the strength of my feelings for my rights would probably be pretty much proportional to the length of time I'd worked, and would take into account for how long I intended to continue to work in the future, for who, or whatever.

 

The side of me that looks at things from a non-personal point of view, questions how I would think: where if I was a business person, had a small company-where one person's staffing costs could be detrimental to my company's survival, and how would I feel if I employed someone who wasn't able to turn up, and put me in a situation of financial difficulty.

 

Admittedly, if I was a business person of a small company, and not yet established, and not able to afford to pay for someone who I needed-who wasn't there for a required length of time...I'd have a problem, and this would be a consideration to me when employing people.

 

But OK, I'm summising, not speaking from experience... is this unfair of me to say so?

[metaphoria 10]

This is a common accusation on all sorts of threads. What it normally means is that you've found that several different people disagree with you. It doesn't mean that they've organised a posse and all joined the thread to lambast you, indeed most of them were posting on the thread before you.

 

No accusations, just observations which may well be wrong. Lambast away, please...I'd actually quite welcome that, really. Tell me what you think.

[rubydazzler 11]

I normally use bigger words like mysoginistic, or just ignore them for what they are. You however are generally serious, so when you make some sweeping generalisation about men (which you do regularly) I feel the need to point out that you're wrong.

I'm going to do you the courtesy of trying to answer this accusation sensibly And I'm not generally serious! meh, what a cheek! I have a highly developed sense of humour!

 

I try never to make sweeping generalisations about anything as, in my experience, they rarely hold. For a start I'm usually posting in response to a specific point. I specify "some", "many" "a few" "a lot" whenever I post, purely because of past forum experience of people taking everything personally, as you are now Although really when you're debating with supposedly intelligent people these qualifers shouldn't be necessary. Surely, it's implicit that one can never include an entire group in a comment?

 

You may not be like other people, none of us is, after all. But when we're discussing these types of subjects, it's not always about you. You have sensitive attennae for what you see as criticism of men, me too but vice versa. I'm pretty sure that if I was the person you and some others try to portray me as, I wouldn't have as many friends of the male gender as I have?

 

I saw the OP as posted specifically to bring out the 'partriarchs' to have a field day lambasting women and as a little extra sideswipe, stir up resentment from mothers who are just doing their best in a difficult and harsh world. I ponder the motives of the OP in even posting a thread based on a sensationalised article by a journo, loosely based on a presumably serious study.

 

I now await with the interest the study asking "Where is the man's place in the modern world"?

 

 

TO the mods, sorry to take it off topic, but I'm getting a bit miffed at certain people (not just Cyclone btw) with a beam in their own eye, pointing out the mote in mine!

[Cyclone 10]

There's not much to separate observation from accusation when you're referring to other posters in the thread.

 

Re: the small business

It's not like pregnant women just don't up one day, you're generally going to get 6 months notice. The cost whilst they are away is covered by the government (completely for small businesses).

So you've got 6 months to arrange maternity cover by hiring someone else.

Then they'll have either said that they aren't coming back, great you can just replace them, or that they are. Hopefully if they've said they are then they do. Worst case, they change their mind and you have to extend that maternity cover a little whilst you look for a permanent replacement.

It's a fair bit of paperwork probably, but nothing that should cripple a business.

It could be made a bit fairer by giving couples a pool of maternity leave and letting them split it how they liked, so from an employers point of view a man is just as at risk of taking time off then for a family.

[discodown 11]

Feminism is about having the choice though, rather than having to do as someone else thinks you should.

What if that someone else is you? Have i expressed myself really badly or something? People don't seem to get what i'm saying

[jongo 10]

I'm going to do you the courtesy of trying to answer this accusation sensibly And I'm not generally serious! meh, what a cheek! I have a highly developed sense of humour!

 

I try never to make sweeping generalisations about anything as, in my experience, they rarely hold. For a start I'm usually posting in response to a specific point. I specify "some", "many" "a few" "a lot" whenever I post, purely because of past forum experience of people taking everything personally, as you are now Although really when you're debating with supposedly intelligent people these qualifers shouldn't be necessary. Surely, it's implicit that one can never include an entire group in a comment?

 

You may not be like other people, none of us is, after all. But when we're discussing these types of subjects, it's not always about you. You have sensitive attennae for what you see as criticism of men, me too but vice versa. I'm pretty sure that if I was the person you and some others try to portray me as, I wouldn't have as many friends of the male gender as I have?

 

I saw the OP as posted specifically to bring out the 'partriarchs' to have a field day lambasting women and as a little extra sideswipe, stir up resentment from mothers who are just doing their best in a difficult and harsh world. I ponder the motives of the OP in even posting a thread based on a sensationalised article by a journo, loosely based on a presumably serious study.

 

I now await with the interest the study asking "Where is the man's place in the modern world"?

 

 

TO the mods, sorry to take it off topic, but I'm getting a bit miffed at certain people (not just Cyclone btw) with a beam in their own eye, pointing out the mote in mine!

 

Well said Rubes

You are one of the fairest and best posters I have seen

 

And also you always manage to put a smiley on when you call me names

 

Keep up the good posts Rubes, your one of the best

[shh! 10]

What if that someone else is you? Have i expressed myself really badly or something? People don't seem to get what i'm saying

 

Actually I don't think I understand

 

Do you mean some feminists put pressure on women NOT to be 'just housewives'? Making women feel guilty if that's what they want? Hm, maybe some do, I wouldn't though. I think most women work out of personal choice and/or economic necessity rather than political principles...

 

I've probably misunderstood again haven't I??

[Cyclone 10]

What if that someone else is you? Have i expressed myself really badly or something? People don't seem to get what i'm saying

 

Ermm, if the someone else is you then it isn't imposed it is? Unless you think that you should do it but don't really want to, which is in my book still an imposition because it's a reaction to the perceived appearance that's projected, ie it's doing it for other people, not yourself.

Ha, I probably make about as much sense as you did there :-)

[Cyclone 10]

I try never to make sweeping generalisations about anything as, in my experience, they rarely hold

Also would men be willing to give half of the money they have left after the household expenses are covered to the woman, to spend as she pleases, which would only be fair, after all? I doubt it very much the way they moan on whenever any money is spent on anything that doesn't directly benefit them

 

This is what I mean, 'they' in your sentence apparently refers to all men and makes them out to be selfish and tight. It's a sweeping generalisation and a dig at men.