What do you think of Universal Healthcare?

[Mathom]

 

b & d) I understand these points, indeed up until recently I would have agreed with them but now I can see that single mothers, disabilities as horrible as they are, aren't my problem and I shouldn't have to pay anything to help them. Education is also an interesting debate in and of itself, private education is obviously of a higher standard than public. If it was all private and the burden of paying for public eduation was taken off the taxpayer then those who couldn't afford it would have to be taught by volunteers or at home but that would be their responsibility.

 

'Chips' and 'shoulders' spring to mind.

 

You'll think differently when you get a few years (and kids) under your belt and spending your extra cash on computer games isn't so important.

[Magilla]

Education is also an interesting debate in and of itself, private education is obviously of a higher standard than public. If it was all private and the burden of paying for public eduation was taken off the taxpayer then those who couldn't afford it would have to be taught by volunteers or at home but that would be their responsibility.

 

But then the nation fails as a whole, both those that can afford "services" aswell as those who can't.

 

It doesn't matter how much you can afford if there are simply not enough people to do the job, paying privately doesn't help if there's still no-one to help you. It's not just medical services it's entirely across the board, industry and politics.

How can a society survive if the population is so ill educated that superstition or religion rule the ballot box, or should we ban one person one vote? If not then the few rich would have to live by the rules of the many... not great if the many think you should be burned at the stake for being rich

 

In the end we all know the answer, eduction is provided through general taxation for all because it benefits all of us, both rich and poor in both a social AND financial areas, an educated population makes the country competitive with other nations for jobs and resources.

[Mercenary]

Seing that you all know so much about the healthcare in the USA, I suppose that you all ready know that theres PLENTY of free health care here for people that can't afford it< NO ONE gets turned away from a doctors office or a hospital.

 

But why go into detail...you already know every thing. so figure it out for yourselves or just make it up like usual.

 

What have I made up?

 

Many people become ill through no fault of their own. Do these people count?

 

To those I would say 'Hard Cheese!' Life sucks for that person but I shouldn't be obliged to pay for their treatment.

 

Forced how?

 

I've re-read that and it doesn't make much sense . I was trying to say that people shouldn't be forced to pay for the NHS by it being swiped out of your pay packet at the end of every month.

 

I bears no comparison whatsoever (IMV). How do you feel about education? Do you wonder why you pay for other people's kids to be educated?

 

I can see the exception of education but no, I don't see the difference in me paying taxes so that someone can have a better car and paying taxes so that someone can have better healthcare. The individual should be responsible for sorting that out themselves.

 

Then why do you pay taxes at all? It's a two way street, it's a social responsibility. All taxes benefit everyone (ideally), so why would anyone pay any taxes when they should look after No.1?

 

Taxes are important for things such as police, the armed forces etc but IMHO I don't think they should stretch to healthcare.

 

They can if they want, but then ofcourse they wouldn't get much work.

 

It also puts the doctor in a rather awkward position since they've made an oath do "do no harm". How is this compatible with refusing treatment on financial grounds?

 

Because they have learned an extremly difficult skill and should be able to charge whatever the market demands.

 

You'll think differently when you get a few years (and kids) under your belt and spending your extra cash on computer games isn't so important.

 

That is a totally irrelavant comment that smacks of pettiness.

 

But then the nation fails as a whole, both those that can afford "services" aswell as those who can't.

 

It doesn't matter how much you can afford if there are simply not enough people to do the job, paying privately doesn't help if there's still no-one to help you. It's not just medical services it's entirely across the board, industry and politics.

How can a society survive if the population is so ill educated that superstition or religion rule the ballot box, or should we ban one person one vote? If not then the few rich would have to live by the rules of the many... not great if the many think you should be burned at the stake for being rich

 

In the end we all know the answer, eduction is provided through general taxation for all because it benefits all of us, both rich and poor in both a social AND financial areas, an educated population makes the country competitive with other nations for jobs and resources.

 

I certainly see your point on education and I go back on my earlier comment. However I don't think that healthcare and education should be in the same bracket of government control.

 

Glad I have started an interesting debate anyway .

[Mathom]

That is a totally irrelavant comment that smacks of pettiness.

 

Nevertheless, it's more correct than most of this thread.

[Mercenary]

How do you know that I don't have children already? And if not, why do you presume that I will have some in the future? Adults without children shouldn't be responsible for the healthcare of those who choose to have children.

[Mathom]

How do you know that I don't have children already? And if not, why do you presume that I will have some in the future? Adults without children shouldn't be responsible for the healthcare of those who choose to have children.

 

Yes they should. The children of today will be paying for you to have your backside wiped by an NHS nurse when you get old and decrepit.

 

Guess what? We've got a child and you know what it would have cost to have him privately? Over £30,000. I won't object if you choose to have one in future and it costs that. That's how it works in this country.

 

And I know you haven't got children because of your attitude.

[Funky_Gibbon]

What I believe is that under such as system there would be, for lack of a better word, 'charity' doctors/surgeries/clinics etc where good hearted volunteers would work for the type of people you are referring to.

 

So you expect doctors and nurses to donate their time and pay for a full range of hospital services? In a country where doctors decided not to provide any GP cover after 5pm and Consultants use NHS facilities to provide their own lucrative private practice?

 

Leaving health provision for the poor to the charitable instincts of others just leaves the poor without healthcare.

[Magilla]

To those I would say 'Hard Cheese!' Life sucks for that person but I shouldn't be obliged to pay for their treatment.

 

Indeed, but then, what is the value of society if we're happy to let people die needlessly. What is the point?

 

I would be interested to know how you intend to pay for your own treatment under the regime you suggest, because I suspect you probably wouldn't be able to (unless of course, you are very wealthy).

 

I've re-read that and it doesn't make much sense . I was trying to say that people shouldn't be forced to pay for the NHS by it being swiped out of your pay packet at the end of every month.

 

How should the people be "forced" to take responsibility for their own treatment? Savings? Private healthcare (profit or none profit?)?

 

I can see the exception of education but no, I don't see the difference in me paying taxes so that someone can have a better car and paying taxes so that someone can have better healthcare. The individual should be responsible for sorting that out themselves.

 

You can't see any difference between a car, which has no bearing on your health or your ability to live, and healthcare?

 

You can't compare one with the other as they are poles apart. Saying paying for universal healthcare is like paying for someone else to have a nice car is a nonsense. It bears no relation both to each other, or reality.

 

In what way exactly, is paying for your own and others healthcare comparable to giving away cars? It isn't! You fail to realise that the car is also for you, not just the other person. If neither of you can afford a car, then it seems like quite a good solution.

 

Unless your actually paying for your treatment out of your own personal savings, then you haven't really got an arguement. Private health insurance only pays out if and when you're ill, when you're not your contributions simply vanish (possibly to pay for a car or house for someone). Now that *is* paying for someone else to have something for no work! At least with the NHS your unused contributions go towards paying for someone else to get treatment, just as their unused contibutions are used to pay for yours.

 

Taxes are important for things such as police, the armed forces etc but IMHO I don't think they should stretch to healthcare.

 

*WHY?*

 

If people can afford private healthcare, which is likely to be more than the cost of their security, why not extend this to the police? It's clear that some people can afford to defend themselves and their property privately, why should they pay for the police to protect you?

 

Because they have learned an extremly difficult skill and should be able to charge whatever the market demands.

 

They can and do, just go to Harley Street! We don't live in a communist state, any doctor can leave the NHS and do as they please. Ofcourse, unless they're very eminent, they're not going to get much work.

 

You failed to respond to the comment about the hypocratic oath, how is what you suggest in any way compatible with saving lives and doing no harm?

 

I certainly see your point on education and I go back on my earlier comment. However I don't think that healthcare and education should be in the same bracket of government control.

 

Again.... you failed to say why?

 

Glad I have started an interesting debate anyway .

 

Each to their own. From my own personal experience and from chatting to my US friends, most can't afford healthcare.. so from my point of view it's pretty clear that I probably wouldn't be able to either.

 

Private healthcare is very expensive, and there's no guarantee you will get appropriate treatment should you fall ill. Generally you get the treatment that costs the least, not the treatment that might help you the best. Without private healthcare, most people wouldn't be able to afford any treatment whatsoever. It's insanely expensive.

 

It would also increase costs across the board, for everyone. We would all end up paying much more than the current burden through taxation.

 

At least with the system we have, we're all essentially paying for healthcare through general taxation, if I don't require treatment my contributions can go towards helping someone else rather than propping up a private equity investor. This is what society is all about (IMV).

 

Lets not forget that desperate people do desperate things, if you're going to needlessly die you might not be so bothered about taking those 50 other people with you........

[jfish1936]

Mercenary has a point. Everyone should be a rugged individulist, and if life gets tough, they should quietly die and not bother the rest of us. Certainly we should not be taxed to maintain a public park -- if you want to play with your kids on grass, or feed ducks by a lake, form a club to buy, own and operate a private park. Don't forget the 20 metre walls round it, to stop non-payers seeing the beauty of the trees.

Can we control sunsets? I remember a joke of some rich man complaining that it was unfair that the poor could enjoy the sunset as much as he did.

There's even tales of home;ess people sleeping over gratings where warm air comes up -- why are they not charged for this?

There's so much we could do by privatising everything, and if you ain't got the money, get out of the way!

Thanks, Mercenary, for the inspiration. I'll go off and dream up more of our private enterprise Utopia (Dystopia?)

[JFKvsNixon]

How do you know that I don't have children already? And if not, why do you presume that I will have some in the future? Adults without children shouldn't be responsible for the healthcare of those who choose to have children.

 

Did your your parents pay for your education and your delivery into this world or did the state? Also, do you have your own police, fire, armed forces, ambulance service or do you rely upon the state to do these things for you? What do you think about education, do you think that your taxes should pay for other peoples education?