What do you think of Universal Healthcare?

[Heyesey]

I think you would not see as many 'have-nots' in a soceity where personal responsibility is paramount.

 

You keep saying that, even though you were proven wrong within about six posts. Can't you come up with an argument that actually has some merit? Or are you just stuck in the groove?

[Mathom]

I think you would not see as many 'have-nots' in a soceity where personal responsibility is paramount.

 

That depends on whether any illnesses or conditions you contract are because of lifestyle, doesn't it? I presume you don't know about genetic conditions, conditions of age, industrial illnesses, accidents, blah blah blah...?

[Mercenary]

But if someone say has athama/autism/ms/etc, conditions that one is born with and not due to income or lifestyle, and that needs to be monitored and cared for carefully, charity drs are not going to help.

 

The states has this and all that happens is that people get a quick glance over and moved along. As human beings we all deserve the best possible chance at survival.

 

What about those who are VERY healthy, and then become redundant from their well to do job that helps them pay for the best cover money can get? They are then suddenly without and become very sick. Are we supposed to let them die as well? Say "Oh well?" What if that as you or someone you were very close to? Would they have the right to die?

 

Sorry for all its quirks and problems, the NHS is one of the better things about this country. Until youve lived without knowing how you would pay for a drs appt, prescriptions or extended hospital visit, then you can keep on thinking how you do.

 

Yes we all deserve the best chance at survival but I should not have to pay for someone elses chance at survival. Life is not fair. If someone loses a great job then gets ill then they should have had the foresight to save for such things happening. Their situation has nothing to do with me. If it happened to someone who I care about then if I could help them out I would choose to but for people I don't care about, they have to deal with their own situations.

 

You keep saying that, even though you were proven wrong within about six posts. Can't you come up with an argument that actually has some merit? Or are you just stuck in the groove?

 

Where was the point regard personal responsibility proven wrong? The point about America having no universal healthcare and being the most obese nation? If people were forced to face the consequences of their actions and look after themselves they would be less inclined to eat themselves into obesity. The UK is getting to a similar level of obesity and our situation could become much worse as we do have universal healthcare.

 

That depends on whether any illnesses or conditions you contract are because of lifestyle, doesn't it? I presume you don't know about genetic conditions, conditions of age, industrial illnesses, accidents, blah blah blah...?

 

That reminds me of a funny sketch Jack Dee does during one of his stand ups saying that if he was in charge of the NHS he would re-arrange waiting times so they would be relative to how stupid you had been in injuring yourself, but I digress. Of the conditions you listed I would only say that genetic conditions would be viable for help from the state. The rest should be covered by people themselves by putting money aside or having insurance.

[alternageek]

Yes we all deserve the best chance at survival but I should not have to pay for someone elses chance at survival. Life is not fair. If someone loses a great job then gets ill then they should have had the foresight to save for such things happening. Their situation has nothing to do with me. If it happened to someone who I care about then if I could help them out I would choose to but for people I don't care about, they have to deal with their own situations.

 

I dont think you have ANY idea on how much health care actually costs.

 

My sister recently moved back to the states and was in between jobs, because of this she had no health insurance and had a VERY healthy savings (at least 50K) acct. While she was leaving her gym, she slipped and fell on some ice. The fall cause her to break her pubic bone and pelvis in 7 different places and caused her to be kept in hospital for over 2 and a half weeks. The cost of this stay was over $60K, and thats without the rehab she needed when she came home. It wiped her savings completely and shes currently filing for bankruptcy so the creditors stop calling her.

 

She wanted to use that money to buy a house and now she has to live at home with my father. Shes suing the people who owned the parking lot, but that doesnt matter right now as shes broke adn her case wont settle for at least a few years. She had an amazing credit rating with little debt to now being completely broke and financially ruined. No matter how much you plan and save, it will never be enough.

 

I also know no matter what I say to you, Im wrong.

[Mercenary]

I dont think you have ANY idea on how much health care actually costs.

 

My sister recently moved back to the states and was in between jobs, because of this she had no health insurance and had a VERY healthy savings (at least 50K) acct. While she was leaving her gym, she slipped and fell on some ice. The fall cause her to break her pubic bone and pelvis in 7 different places and caused her to be kept in hospital for over 2 and a half weeks. The cost of this stay was over $60K, and thats without the rehab she needed when she came home. It wiped her savings completely and shes currently filing for bankruptcy so the creditors stop calling her.

 

She wanted to use that money to buy a house and now she has to live at home with my father. Shes suing the people who owned the parking lot, but that doesnt matter right now as shes broke adn her case wont settle for at least a few years. She had an amazing credit rating with little debt to now being completely broke and financially ruined. No matter how much you plan and save, it will never be enough.

 

I also know no matter what I say to you, Im wrong.

 

Its like I have said before, I agree that the American system is broken. As for the bolded part- I don't mean any of this personally its just a debate.

[Heyesey]

Where was the point regard personal responsibility proven wrong? The point about America having no universal healthcare and being the most obese nation? If people were forced to face the consequences of their actions and look after themselves they would be less inclined to eat themselves into obesity.

 

 

So you admit you're wrong, and then claim you're right in the sentence immediately following. Is there any point continuing with this?

[Mercenary]

So you admit you're wrong, and then claim you're right in the sentence immediately following. Is there any point continuing with this?

 

I have to admit I don't know what you are getting at. Where did I admit I was wrong?

[jfish1936]

And it will always be logically much more expensive to have thousands of private companies doing admin for healthcare simply because there are more of them! That's without taking into the equation the vast sums paid by them to greedy lawyers whose job it is to stop The Paying Customers getting their cancer drugs at all costs.

Under private health YOUR premiums go up to pay for more and more admin in order to save the shareholders money.

 

I would have said "to give the shareholders more money"

 

This is a very important point; an organisation can be set up to run a health service fairly cheaply **to provide services** anf funded as needed. Or we can set up a system to enable some doctors and hospital enerpreneurs to become millionaires, assure large profits for "health insurance" funds, and do wonderful treatment for wealthy patients, while the unfortunate, like the lady who slipped, are bankrupted, and the poor are left to die.

 

I worked 7 yrs for the NHS; came to Oz in 1967; worked in a working class area GP clinic,keeping fees modest because our people couldn't afford big fees; became a specialist in private practice, and made a good living on the government approved fees; then finished off with 12 years in a public hospital, on a salary, treating patients free of charge.

 

Years ago, in the run-up to Gough Whitlam's election as our PM, a TV soapie about a school showed a girl unable to do her schoolwork.

Sympathetic teacher:"What is troubling you?"

Schoolgirl : "Boo-hoo, Boo-hoo, don't ask me!"

After a week or two, it turned out that her mother had some horrible trouble and needed an operation, but couldn't have it because it would cost $50K.

We wrote to the TV station, pointing out that if the lady were sent to our emergency dept, she would be seen and assessed and a fully qualified consultant would review her and if necessary do the operation himself, certainly supervise it, and this would involve her in no fee at all.

The reply was that the plot was made for dramatic effect and did not represent reality.

BTW, the Medical Association official told us that they discussed matters with politicians, and didn't bother with kid's TV nonsense.

 

Yet I suspect that that program influenced a lot of young voters, and helped Gough to win with his Medicare proposals.

[alternageek]

Its like I have said before, I agree that the American system is broken. As for the bolded part- I don't mean any of this personally its just a debate.

 

If everyone goes private, the costs are going to skyrocket, because no one will be in the business of helping only making a profit. It will work just like the US system.

[Mercenary]

I dont think you have ANY idea on how much health care actually costs.

 

My sister recently moved back to the states and was in between jobs, because of this she had no health insurance and had a VERY healthy savings (at least 50K) acct. While she was leaving her gym, she slipped and fell on some ice. The fall cause her to break her pubic bone and pelvis in 7 different places and caused her to be kept in hospital for over 2 and a half weeks. The cost of this stay was over $60K, and thats without the rehab she needed when she came home. It wiped her savings completely and shes currently filing for bankruptcy so the creditors stop calling her.

 

She wanted to use that money to buy a house and now she has to live at home with my father. Shes suing the people who owned the parking lot, but that doesnt matter right now as shes broke adn her case wont settle for at least a few years. She had an amazing credit rating with little debt to now being completely broke and financially ruined. No matter how much you plan and save, it will never be enough.

 

I also know no matter what I say to you, Im wrong.

 

As unfortunate an accident and situation that happened to your sister, it sucks and is life. But what do people in those situations expect? A free ride? Never going to happen as the money comes from somewhere and doesn't grow on trees. This being either the tax payers through taxes or the government via taxing the people. Life is never fair as crappy as it sounds.

 

She was without insurance due to being between jobs and this is exactly why you can purchase health insurance outside of working in a job. Further, you didn't explicitly state it but I couldn't help but see an underlying statement that it's someone elses fault that it costs so much. Thank the cost of insurance and high premiums to those taking advantage of the free health care in the States due to not having insurance. A lot of this is due to illegal immigration as they're a huge burden of somewhere in the billions of dollars for health care in the states.

 

But my main point with responsibility is that it's her responsibility to ensure her health and insurance, are up to date and current not the state, not the doctors or hospitals- her's.

 

But this is a point that most who disagree will contend with as they misconstrue the idea of personal responsibility and feel that the government should hold them by the hand in such instances. This only makes Big Brother bigger. This is the decline the country is currently taking and further why socialist systems/ideals are continuing to sprout foward.

 

If everyone goes private, the costs are going to skyrocket, because no one will be in the business of helping only making a profit. It will work just like the US system.

 

Correct-a-mondo. If the government is in charge of health care insurance companies can't make money. Further this means doctors, hospitals, and nurses will only get so much money from the government thus taking out the supply/demand for doctors as they'll all get paid the same devaluing the career of a doctor. So where then is the incentive to spend the majority of their life going to school, paying huge amounts of money to go to medical school, to have a mediocre paying job as a doctor? Nowhere- it's a downward spiral.