Atheism or Humanism?

[Grahame]

I don't want to get into a big religious debate, but surely that's a waste of energy?

 

Over the last couple of years, I have learnt that hating anything or anyone is pointless as I just makes you feel negative.

 

That is true. It is bad to hate, it chews you up and you feel even worse. The emphasis in Christianity is about love of family, neighbour and humanity in general and this is the theme that runs all through Christianity.

 

Today we wouldn't talk about hating the poison that kills but that is the sense in which it was being used. I hope I have explained it alright?

[satsuma]

I told you to go down to social security for it and give them my name.

 

The other thing you are on about is that we are told to hate anything that comes in the way of following Jesus.

 

Jesus was pretty clear about giving to any man that asks (presumably you are ok to ignore women) , and not complaining if they take anything from you. Also, the quote about hating your family has no qualifications about only hating them if they get in the way.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

[Grahame]

Jesus was pretty clear about giving to any man that asks (presumably you are ok to ignore women) , and not complaining if they take anything from you. Also, the quote about hating your family has no qualifications about only hating them if they get in the way.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

Jesus was talking about the cost of discipleship and if you read the preceding verses you will see that people were making excuses, one had just bought a field, one had just bought five pairs of oxen, another had just got married, and Jesus was saying, "If you want to follow me you have to make your choices, if you want to be my disciple you have to put all these things behind you. You have to love me more than these.

 

(Hate means to love less.)

[satsuma]

Jesus was talking about the cost of discipleship and if you read the preceding verses you will see that people were making excuses, one had just bought a field, one had just bought five pairs of oxen, another had just got married, and Jesus was saying, "If you want to follow me you have to make your choices, if you want to be my disciple you have to put all these things behind you. You have to love these less that you love me.

 

(Hate means to love less.)

 

Erm, no it doesn't. It means to dislike intensely. How many Christians actually give up their fields, oxen or new brides, or intensely dislike all the members of their family in order to obey Jesus?

[Norbert]

So Jesus was saying:

 

If someone values their parents, family, friends and community more than me, then he cannot be a christian (and so presumably will not be saved.)

 

 

What an arrogant man and doctrine. He’s off my christmas card list;)

[Grahame]

Erm, no it doesn't. It means to dislike intensely. How many Christians actually give up their fields, oxen or new brides, or intensely dislike all the members of their family in order to obey Jesus?

 

Jesus was saying if you want to follow me then you have to love these less than you love me, which is very logical. You are going to go where your heart is. But as with your other example about the coat, society has changed and we have a welfare state that we didn't have in Jesus time and just as that doesn't apply today, although it would without social services, by the same token we don't follow Jesus around the sea of Galilee physically, so forsaking your family to follow Jesus doesn't apply today.

[Chopsie]

You don't have to get your head round it, I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ which gives you a whole new perspective on life.

 

Others say they have tried it and it hasn't worked for them, but it works for me and I am testimony to it so I know it is not ridiculous.

 

In your opinion it's not ridiculous. The teaching of Jesus Christ gave you a whole new perspective on life. Don't talk about these things as absolutes, it's all a matter of opinion. All too often christians talk about their faith as the absolute truth, despite it being one of many out there, and having no proof whatsoever. Richard Dawkins raises an interesting paradox in 'The God Delusion' -

 

"If God is omniscient he must be knowing what he is going to do at some point of time (say one year later) in the future. Then he is powerless against changing it. Hence He cannot be omnipotent"

[Grahame]

So Jesus was saying:

 

If someone values their parents, family, friends and community more than me, then he cannot be a christian (and so presumably will not be saved.)

 

 

What an arrogant man and doctrine. He’s off my christmas card list;)

 

This is probably what your friend was saying about being close to God. An example today would be that some people put their work or even their football team above their wife and family.

[satsuma]

Jesus was saying if you want to follow me then you have to love these less than you love me, which is very logical. You are going to go where your heart is. But as with your other example about the coat, society has changed and we have a welfare state that we didn't have in Jesus time and just as that doesn't apply today, although it would without social services, by the same token we don't follow Jesus around the sea of Galilee physically, so forsaking your family to follow Jesus doesn't apply today.

 

I think that you are reading your bible very selectively. Jesus doesn't put any qualifications on his commandments about only giving if there isn't a welfare state, or using the word "hate" when actually means "love a bit less, relatively speaking". If you are happy interpreting the bible in a way that is convenient for you, then that is fine, but at least be honest with yourself that that is what you are doing.

[Grahame]

In your opinion it's not ridiculous. The teaching of Jesus Christ gave you a whole new perspective on life. Don't talk about these things as absolutes, it's all a matter of opinion. All too often christians talk about their faith as the absolute truth, despite it being one of many out there, and having no proof whatsoever. Richard Dawkins raises an interesting paradox in 'The God Delusion' -

 

"If God is omniscient he must be knowing what he is going to do at some point of time (say one year later) in the future. Then he is powerless against changing it. Hence He cannot be omnipotent"

 

Please don't you or Dawkins presume to tell me about my personal life. It just proves you or Dawkins do not know what you are talking about, I mean to say, who in his right mind would say "If God is (infinitely wise) he must be knowing what he is going to do at some point of time in the future etc. etc.

 

My question is, If God is infinitly wise and has planned the future, why in his wisdom would he want to change it?