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The Consequences of Brexit [part 4]

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So the EU has designs on taking over Russia, China, USA, India,Canada, South America etc etc.

 

Give us a laugh and explain how :cool:

 

Neoliberalism.

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Neoliberalism.

 

That's not an explanation - just a word with various interpretations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

 

Still doesn't explain how the EU can take over - or even has designs on taking over - far bigger populations / economies / political blocs like Russia, USA, China, India.

 

Try discussing :cool:

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Quite correct.

 

The unelected EU Presidents and their undemocratic EU Commission ARE in charge of a group of 28 countries, and their economies and infrastructures. And that's a serious problem and a huge democratic deficit.

 

The democratically elected politicians in these 28 countries are not in charge of their nations, for they have ceded national power and authority to an unelected cabal of failed former politicians and bureaucrats. EU law has primacy over national law, so the citizens of these 28 countries have effectively been disenfranchised.

 

The EU is remote and alien, it ensures that ordinary people do not understand who proposes, who decides, and who monitors EU rules and laws. The influence of the big multi-national lobbyists is everywhere in the corridors of Brussels.

 

The EU stands high above its member states, and will administer a financial punishment beating if they do not obey its will. Such as failing to take in an EU Commission defined quantity of asylum-seekers, as Hungary and Poland have done.

 

The EU is not Europe. The EU is an economic and political union with designs on being a world government. For the benefit of the few.

 

Poor EU,they thought they had all that power,and suddenly,some people put a cross on a piece of paper,and it was all over.:hihi:

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Quite correct.

 

The unelected EU Presidents and their undemocratic EU Commission ARE in charge of a group of 28 countries, and their economies and infrastructures. And that's a serious problem and a huge democratic deficit.

 

The democratically elected politicians in these 28 countries are not in charge of their nations, for they have ceded national power and authority to an unelected cabal of failed former politicians and bureaucrats. EU law has primacy over national law, so the citizens of these 28 countries have effectively been disenfranchised.

 

The EU is remote and alien, it ensures that ordinary people do not understand who proposes, who decides, and who monitors EU rules and laws. The influence of the big multi-national lobbyists is everywhere in the corridors of Brussels.

 

The EU stands high above its member states, and will administer a financial punishment beating if they do not obey its will. Such as failing to take in an EU Commission defined quantity of asylum-seekers, as Hungary and Poland have done.

 

The EU is not Europe. The EU is an economic and political union with designs on being a world government. For the benefit of the few.

 

Who decides who are EU presidents? Are names plucked out of hat? Is it like jury duty and Hans in Berlin is going to get a letter? Is armed conflict or threats of violence involved? Bribes?

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Poor EU,they thought they had all that power,and suddenly,some people put a cross on a piece of paper,and it was all over.:hihi:

 

It's far from being all over. Just wait and see.

 

---------- Post added 18-12-2017 at 08:39 ----------

 

Members of the EU Commission are allocated between member states, but they DO NOT REPRESENT their nation states. They represent the EU.

 

They are selected based on their loyalty to and support for the European project, and must act in accordance with EU interests. Not national interests.

Edited by Car Boot

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It's far from being all over. Just wait and see.

 

There's people on the pitch,they think it's all over.

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You don't have to agree. But that's the legal situation, from which the gepolitical situation stems.

 

The time at which to exert the brinksmanship which you mention, was before triggering Article 50, effectively threaten the EU with doing it. Not after. And still less so with making so much noise about divergence in the past 12 months, when everybody in the EU has been crystal clear since the day after the referendum, that they would not sanction any outcome which undermines the Single Market. German car manufacturers first amongst them.

 

You've been past the brink since March 2017. The sooner you -and everyone else, Brexiter like Remainer- understand and accept it, the more orderly and the less damaging the UK exit can be.

Where there’s a political will there’s a political way,as we are seeing with the “impossible hurdle”of the Irish border.
But which way, depends on which will of which political branch has the ascendency at the relevant time.

 

Currently, notwithstanding the rebellion of last week, it's still with the hard Brexiters, and likely to stay with them a good while longer until and unless the more pragmatic political branches (irrespective of their respective Brexiting or Remaining agenda) join into some unified group of national interest (as mooted by many since last week, including those 11 rebels themselves).

 

We've not seen anything yet with the “impossible hurdle” of the Irish border: the proof of that political way pudding will be in the transition deal + implementation details. Which, as of now, still have the full potential to result in a hard border.

 

EDIT - the best evidence of that state of affairs is May's proclamations of today about seeking FTAs post-Brexit during the transition phase. That's just political noise by Theresa, to placate hardliners: absent reasonable certainty at least, about what the relationship will be between the UK and the EU post-Brexit (which is yet to even be discussed, never mind agreed with the EU and voted through by all the relevant Parliaments), she's in no fit political or legal state to even get started with those FTAs, because the FTA-negotiating counterparts (e.g. US, China, India, <etc.>) wouldn't know the full range of what opportunities the UK can offer without that knowledge.

If you feel strongly enough that Brexit will damage the U.K. more than any perceived benefit then you pursue any avenue.
Well, the rational person (or business) pursues the avenue which best preserves the status quo and offers the best opportunities. In my case, that avenue leads straight out of the UK, a move which is now well underway.

It might be an extremely long shot,but one that many in the business world and politicians would prefer.
All I'd say about that one is: for the everyday living and wellbeing of Joe Average in the UK, politicians do not matter much, the business world does a lot (because that business world provides the growth, the jobs, the tax income <...> including the public services jobs, the NHS, etc, etc. which couldn't be financed and maintained without the activity from the business world and its taxation; not the politicians, who just decide how much to tax and then how 'best' to p*** it away).

 

Watch this particular business world space in 2018, there's going to be some upsets early next year.

I may well have to be satisfied with the sloppily soft Brexit,but so will those who wanted to sever all ties on day one.
That will not go any way towards solving the multiple chasms that now divide British society: haves, have-nots; pro-EU, anti-EU; pro-Left, pro-Right; young, old; <etc.>, and which all grow wider by the day still.

 

You've got years yet, and many of them, before any semblance of cohesive harmony begins to surface again across British society (there's hope). If you feel like finger-pointing anyone about that state of affairs, that's where you need to look at politicians. In particular, all those who have peddled divisive politics under the guise of easy and catchy solutions to extraordinarily-complex problems, for years past and still now, just to gain political power. Farage and the editors of right wing rags like the Express and the Mail (and yes, these are politicians) ahead of them all.

Edited by L00b

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It's far from being all over. Just wait and see.

 

---------- Post added 18-12-2017 at 08:39 ----------

 

Members of the EU Commission are allocated between member states, but they DO NOT REPRESENT their nation states. They represent the EU.

 

They are selected based on their loyalty to and support for the European project, and must act in accordance with EU interests. Not national interests.

 

How far do you want us to go back........the sixties,pre- war,the middle ages,the stone age?............give us a clue.

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Quite correct.

 

The unelected EU Presidents and their undemocratic EU Commission ARE in charge of a group of 28 countries, and their economies and infrastructures. And that's a serious problem and a huge democratic deficit.

 

The democratically elected politicians in these 28 countries are not in charge of their nations, for they have ceded national power and authority to an unelected cabal of failed former politicians and bureaucrats. EU law has primacy over national law, so the citizens of these 28 countries have effectively been disenfranchised.

 

The EU is remote and alien, it ensures that ordinary people do not understand who proposes, who decides, and who monitors EU rules and laws. The influence of the big multi-national lobbyists is everywhere in the corridors of Brussels.

 

The EU stands high above its member states, and will administer a financial punishment beating if they do not obey its will. Such as failing to take in an EU Commission defined quantity of asylum-seekers, as Hungary and Poland have done.

 

The EU is not Europe. The EU is an economic and political union with designs on being a world government. For the benefit of the few.

 

OMG. Stop talking rubbish. Geez.

 

The European Presidents and the Commission are elected. In the same way we elect our prime minister. They are selected by the European Commission and then voted upon by the EU Parliament. All branches here are made up of democratically elected officials. They don’t just show up and take up their posts without scrutiny. Your lack of fundamental unstanding of such simple matters of the EU shows that your vote is obviously tainted.

 

All your arguments make no sense whatsoever. You argue that the EU is anti worker but we have shown you that is was because of EU legislation that workers’ rights in this country have been strengthened like never before, whether it is health and safety legislation or working hours. You either don’t work and therefore can’t appreciate the effects or you work for an insignificant employer who has no idea what they are doing.

Edited by ez8004

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OMG. Stop talking rubbish. Geez.

 

The European Presidents and the Commission are elected. In the same way we elect our prime minister.

 

We don't elect our Prime Minister. We elect individual MP's who belong to various political parties which then, depending on the number of seats they have, may be able to form an executive with a Prime Minister. The point is, we can vote against political parties and even the Prime Minister to remove them from office.

 

We cannot remove any EU Commissioner from office.

 

---------- Post added 18-12-2017 at 11:11 ----------

 

Each EU Commissioner has to swear an Oath of Allegiance to the EU.

 

'The Solemn Declaration before the Court of Justice of the European Union':

 

'Having been appointed as a Member of the European Commission by the European Council, following the vote of consent by the European Parliament I solemnly undertake: to respect the Treaties and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union in the fulfilment of all my duties; to be completely independent in carrying out my responsibilities, in the general interest of the Union; in the performance of my tasks, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any Government or from any other institution, body, office or entity; to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties or the performance of my tasks.'

 

EU Commissioners have to obey only the EU. They must, and do, work against the interests of member state parliaments to implement the will of the Commission.

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That's not an explanation - just a word with various interpretations.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

 

Still doesn't explain how the EU can take over - or even has designs on taking over - far bigger populations / economies / political blocs like Russia, USA, China, India.

 

Try discussing :cool:

 

OK, I'll try my best. In a nutshell...

 

Neoliberalism: Populations don't count, countries don't count, only those at the top. Increasingly a very small elite of people run the entire show for their own benefit.

 

For example, Russia may be Communist, but that hasn't stopped Putin and the Russian Oligarchs amassing vast (and I mean VAST) fortunes. India, I believe, has more millionaires per head of population than anywhere else, but still huge numbers of the population are in dire poverty, and so on. The EU isn't so different: a small unelected elite at the top wield immense wealth and power, largely for their own ends.

 

The top 0.05% (it's been suggested that as little as 60 people actually run the world,) have banded together, regardless of nationality, to take make themselves the richest, most powerful and unassailable people in the world. What do you think they talk about at Bilderberg? And all the other closed talking shops?

 

Democracy is just a scam. We are just the worker ants, servicing their greed, and gathering up the crumbs. More and more of the world's wealth (and therefore power) is in fewer and fewer hands.

 

I greatly oversimplify of course. Entire books have been written on this phenomenon, so I can hardly do it justice in a SF post. Try reading some of them:

 

'Profit over People: Neoliberalism and Global Order' by Noam Chomsky

 

'Masters of the Universe: Hayak, Friedman and the birth of Neoliberal Politics' by Daniel Steadman Jones

 

'Never let a serious crisis go to waste: How Neoliberalism survived the Financial Meltdown' by Philip Mirowski.

 

Edited by Anna B

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All your arguments make no sense whatsoever. You argue that the EU is anti worker but we have shown you that is was because of EU legislation that workers’ rights in this country have been strengthened like never before, whether it is health and safety legislation or working hours.

 

How about these laws which strengthened workers rights, health and safety:

 

The Old Age Pensions Act 1908.

 

The National Insurance Act 1911.

 

The Equal Pay Act 1970.

 

The Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

 

The Race Relations Act 1976.

 

Disability Discrimination Act 1995.

 

Elected sovereign British governments, Liberal, Labour and even Conservative, have done far more to safeguard workers rights in the UK than the EU ever has. If we relied on the EU we would have LESS paid holidays, LESS paid maternity and paternity leave than we do at present.

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