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11-10-2018, 14:27   #4221
woodview
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Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
I don't think it's anyone's democratic right to be allowed a referendum. However, if a referendum is authorised for whatever reasons, then the result should be respected and the outcome implemented.
The result could be ignored, as it wasn't legally authorised. But riot Police to stop people voting??? Very dodgy ground IMO. Maybe they prefer Franco's ideas pre 1975?
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11-10-2018, 14:42   #4222
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Originally Posted by woodview View Post
The result could be ignored, as it wasn't legally authorised. But riot Police to stop people voting??? Very dodgy ground IMO. Maybe they prefer Franco's ideas pre 1975?
Yes I agree the Spanish authorities could have done nothing to prevent people voting in the illegal referendum. However, if they hadn't done anything, then it could have been judged by some to be endorsing the referendum. I don't believe anyone got seriously hurt, but do agree it looked bad when woman were dragged out of public buildings by riot police used for the illegal referendum.
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11-10-2018, 14:51   #4223
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Originally Posted by Top Cats Hat View Post
It is interesting to compare how much crap Corbyn got for laying a wreath at a memorial which may or may not have been where members of the Black September group had been buried (it turns out that they weren't), yet Teresa May is doing political deals with the political apologists for the Shankill Butchers who cut their victims to pieces before finally killing them without any comment.

Hypocrisy in the extreme, not just from May and Co but also from the media who choose to overlook this inconvenient fact.
You are aware that the Loyalist paramilitary groups detested the DUP for its policy of hanging terrorists - UVF and UFF included? The Loyalist groups referred to Ian Paisley as 'The Grand Old Duke of York', as they believed he would inflame situations with his rhetoric but disappear when the inevitable conflict ensued.
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11-10-2018, 14:53   #4224
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Originally Posted by woodview View Post
Maybe they prefer Franco's ideas pre 1975?
Sadly the are people of a certain age in parts of Spain, who still regret the passing of the Generalissimo!
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11-10-2018, 15:04   #4225
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Originally Posted by Top Cats Hat View Post
I was going to mention Cyprus but try not to include too many differing subjects in my posts.

Although Turkish membership is very much on the back burner now, if it ever did come about, a united independent Cyprus may be the result.

It is worth bearing in mind that the EU's response to the authoritarianism of Victor Orban in 2018 is completely at odds with its response to the authoritarianism of Pedro S„nchez in 2017.

I guess Madrid has more clout in Brussels than Budapest.
It isn’t an issue of “clout in Brussels”, but one of domestic scale: the EU[28] had a quiet word with Sanchez over his short-lived and highly-localised authoritarianism in 2017, pushing the boat out (correctly IMO) to public condemnation of Sanchez’ heavy-handed policias. The question of regional autonomies aside, by and large Spain was, and still is, up there as a democracy functioning reasonably well.

The EU[28] had been having the same quiet words with Orban about his authoritarianism since 2010, to no effect. 8 years later, it’s a severely dysfunctional “democracy” fast approaching Putin’s kleptocratic plutocracy. Hence, fingers severely rapped, with more to come (if needed).

On the topic of authoritarianism, the UK’s banana constitutional monarchy has no more lessons to give, either.
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Last edited by L00b; 11-10-2018 at 15:07.
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11-10-2018, 15:06   #4226
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Originally Posted by Car Boot View Post
You are aware that the Loyalist paramilitary groups detested the DUP for its policy of hanging terrorists - UVF and UFF included? The Loyalist groups referred to Ian Paisley as 'The Grand Old Duke of York', as they believed he would inflame situations with his rhetoric but disappear when the inevitable conflict ensued.
You could benefit from reading up the history of the origins of post 1968 loyalist paramilitaries and the DUP.

And whatever issues the UVF may have had with Paisley in later years, when they bombed the Silent Valley Reservoir in April 1969 the explosives used were stored in Ian Paisley's home in Belfast the night before the attack.

If you are trying to dissociate the DUP from loyalist paramilitaries you will struggle.
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11-10-2018, 15:07   #4227
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Originally Posted by L00b View Post

On the topic of authoritarianism, the UKís banana constitutional monarchy has no more lessons to give.
What do you mean by this part? Are you talking about recent history?
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11-10-2018, 15:29   #4228
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What do you mean by this part? Are you talking about recent history?
Click the link I inserted in the post?

Basically, the Met hasn’t lifted a finger about Vote Leave (and others’) criminal activities suspected by the Electoral Commission, since the Commission referred these matters to them for investigation (5+ months ago). The reason given by the Met is “issues and political sensitivities”.

Yes, that has “political interference” daubed all over it in day-glo orange.

That, on top of the rest...Not looking to good for ‘democratic’ Britain, lads.
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Last edited by L00b; 11-10-2018 at 15:37.
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11-10-2018, 15:36   #4229
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Click the link I inserted in the post?

Basically, the Met hasnít lifted a finger about Vote Leave (and othersí) criminal activities suspected by the Electoral Commission since it referred these matters to them for investigation, on account of ďissues and political sensitivitiesĒ.
OK, but you'd called the hyper-link 'UK banana constitutional monarchy'. The story is about Leave electoral wrong-doing. Something that needs investigating, but a bit of a tangent from Spanish police violently breaking up a referendum, and nothing about authoritarianism or monarchy?
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11-10-2018, 15:40   #4230
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Originally Posted by woodview View Post
OK, but you'd called the hyper-link 'UK banana constitutional monarchy'. The story is about Leave electoral wrong-doing. Something that needs investigating, but a bit of a tangent from Spanish police violently breaking up a referendum, and nothing about authoritarianism or monarchy?
Oh? So, er...what do you call politically-expedient subversion of law enforcement?

(as a by-the-way: the U.K. is still a constitutional monarchy, last time I checked )

The story also happens to be far more relevant to Brexit and the U.K., than Catalonia’s 2017 bid for independence (or Scotland’s before them, for that matter).
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Last edited by L00b; 11-10-2018 at 15:43.
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11-10-2018, 15:44   #4231
woodview
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Oh? So, er...what do you call politically-expedient subversion of law enforcement?

(As a by-the-way: the U.K. is still a constitutional monarchy, last time I checked)
I know we are a constitutional monarchy.
But are you saying the Police not doing this checking - probably another funding infringement, is equivalent to the Spanish authoritarian clampdown, and crushing of the Catalan referendum? I think they are slightly different........
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11-10-2018, 17:51   #4232
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Originally Posted by Lockdoctor View Post
I don't think it's anyone's democratic right to be allowed a referendum. However, if a referendum is authorised for whatever reasons, then the result should be respected and the outcome implemented.
The result has been respected. Weíve spent 2 years trying to implement based on that. It canít sensibly be done in a way that pleases everyone (and thatís just on the leave side) given the position of the various interests within the U.K.

Based on that the democratic people deserve a say on what is actually agreed. If the referendum had said in 2016 just implement anything as long as itís Brexit nobody would have accepted it.
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11-10-2018, 18:15   #4233
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Originally Posted by I1L2T3 View Post
The result has been respected. We’ve spent 2 years trying to implement based on that. It can’t sensibly be done in a way that pleases everyone (and that’s just on the leave side) given the position of the various interests within the U.K.

Based on that the democratic people deserve a say on what is actually agreed. If the referendum had said in 2016 just implement anything as long as it’s Brexit nobody would have accepted it.
You're spouting utter dishonest nonsense. During the last two years those who don't respect the democratic decision made by the UK people have been prolific at attempting to block the decision the democratic UK people made. The only people who deserve a say in how the UK exit the EU are the democratic people who voted to leave the EU, who were on the winning side of the democratic vote. As the democratic EU referendum was conducted by secret ballot,there is no way of verifying the democratic people who voted to leave the EU, so it is up to Parliament to either accept the agreement our Government make with the EU or reject the deal, meaning the UK leave the EU without a trade deal.
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11-10-2018, 18:16   #4234
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In other news the government are running overnight tests for weeks at a time, to test using the M26 as a car park (well lorry park).

No-deal Brexit planning shuts M26 overnight http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45827197
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11-10-2018, 18:44   #4235
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You're spouting utter dishonest nonsense. During the last two years those who don't respect the democratic decision made by the UK people have been prolific at attempting to block the decision the democratic UK people made. The only people who deserve a say in how the UK exit the EU are the democratic people who voted to leave the EU, who were on the winning side of the democratic vote. As the democratic EU referendum was conducted by secret ballot,there is no way of verifying the democratic people who voted to leave the EU, so it is up to Parliament to either accept the agreement our Government make with the EU or reject the deal, meaning the UK leave the EU without a trade deal.
Your so scared of a second referendum overturning the result that you'd say literally anything to stop it happening.
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11-10-2018, 19:43   #4236
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Currently, a more likely scenario is this.
A deal is struck which gives reasonable trade access. The deal solves the bulk of the worst no-deal outcomes feared. We agree to a pretty simple EU work visa system. Planes keep flying, business runs as normal, goods flow well.
Do labour and DUP try to scupper a deal that is in most likelihood the best compromise available?
If Labour do that with the aim of forcing a GE, will they do ok in it, or suffer a backlash from middle of the road Labour supporters?
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11-10-2018, 19:50   #4237
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Your so scared of a second referendum overturning the result that you'd say literally anything to stop it happening.
Stop being such a drama Queen. There was nothing to be scared about regarding either of the two options, which the democratic people were asked to choose from on the EU referendum ballot paper. There is no Father Christmas and there will be no second referendum. Perhaps, it's time you grew up.

---------- Post added 11-10-2018 at 19:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodview View Post
Currently, a more likely scenario is this.
A deal is struck which gives reasonable trade access. The deal solves the bulk of the worst no-deal outcomes feared. We agree to a pretty simple EU work visa system. Planes keep flying, business runs as normal, goods flow well.
Do labour and DUP try to scupper a deal that is in most likelihood the best compromise available?
If Labour do that with the aim of forcing a GE, will they do ok in it, or suffer a backlash from middle of the road Labour supporters?
It's very hard for Labour or the DUP to force a General Election as a consequence of the fixed term Parliament legislation, which was introduced by the David Cameron/Nick Clegg coalition. There needs to be two thirds of MPs in order to force a General Election. When Mrs May called a General Election last year both the Conservative party and Labour party supported the snap General Election, which wont be the case anytime before the UK leave the EU next March.
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11-10-2018, 19:59   #4238
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Originally Posted by woodview View Post

If Labour do that with the aim of forcing a GE, will they do ok in it, or suffer a backlash from middle of the road Labour supporters?
It might suffer a backlash from right wing Labour supporters but given that the vast majority of Labour supporters voted remain, that backlash will be minimised and probably offset by some remain Tories, Lib Dems and Greens.

In terms of a general election, Brexit supporting Labour voters may have voted in large numbers in certain constituencies (Sunderland, Ebbw Vale etc.) but those constituencies were relatively few and those Labour votes are very likely to go to a revitalised UKIP rather than the Tories who will be seen to have sold out Brexit every bit as much as Labour.
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11-10-2018, 20:02   #4239
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There is no Father Christmas and there will be no second referendum. Perhaps, it's time you grew up.
Perhaps the government should respect the right of the majority now who are asking for a second referendum?
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11-10-2018, 20:09   #4240
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It might suffer a backlash from right wing Labour supporters but given that the vast majority of Labour supporters voted remain, that backlash will be minimised and probably offset by some remain Tories, Lib Dems and Greens.

In terms of a general election, Brexit supporting Labour voters may have voted in large numbers in certain constituencies (Sunderland, Ebbw Vale etc.) but those constituencies were relatively few and those Labour votes are very likely to go to a revitalised UKIP rather than the Tories who will be seen to have sold out Brexit every bit as much as Labour.
To an extent. But would the mix be: all tories stay tory, labour lose 'Sunderlands' and quite a few others to tories or ukip (??) . Still means Labour get a reduced tally.
Personally, I think the backlash would be strong. Breaking a 'reasonable' deal in the commons for political games would be very unpopular imo.
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