Gender Fluid etc, Opinions?

Well, pink doesn't actually exist as a 'colour' according to some scientists so, if true, your argument falls down. I understand what you're trying to say, but pink is still just a variation of only two ingredients.

 

However, i know that bacon, sausage and bread exist...

You didn't answer the question. What is the practical outcome of that way of thinking? So intersex people are a variation of male and female. What does that mean to their daily lives. What bathroom should the person in my earlier example use?

I still think it's very odd that you are arguing that a variation of two ingredients doesn't create a third thing.

A bacon and sausage sandwich is different to a bacon sandwich and different to a sausage sandwich. They would be three different options on a menu. What about custard powder and milk, or butter and sugar, or yellow and blue.

You didn't answer the question. What is the practical outcome of that way of thinking? So intersex people are a variation of male and female. What does that mean to their daily lives. What bathroom should the person in my earlier example use?

 

I still think it's very odd that you are arguing that a variation of two ingredients doesn't create a third thing.

 

A bacon and sausage sandwich is different to a bacon sandwich and different to a sausage sandwich. They would be three different options on a menu. What about custard powder and milk, or butter and sugar, or yellow and blue.

Well, it depends on how you look at it in terms of 'normality'. It isn't 'normal' to be born that way and obviously something has happened genetically for them to end up that way. So, taking that on board, it's not a question of toilets, it's about 'fixing' the issue so that the person is one or the other. Now, there is the argument about whether the parents should be allowed to make that decision or allow the child to decide when it grows up. However, there may be medical reasons that mean it needs sorting and that's for medical professionals to decide.

The toilets bit is still a sticky issue when it comes to gender-fluidity. Should the person be allowed to simply walk in to any toilet they wish at any time? And is it just simply a case of declaring what gender you are that day? For example, a woman might be intimidated by a 6 foot, 18 stone skinhead walking in to the women's toilets simply because they are fluid and are female that day. I'm aware that the gender fluid person might feel intimidated walking in to a men's toilet in a dress, if their sex is male, but that's only the same issue as the former. Do we allow that person to use the disabled toilet... or will they have a problem with that? Dunno. It's definitely not something that will solve itself easily.

What's your thought on it?

On the mixing ingredients bit - it's hard to explain in text. In the natural world there is a seed and an egg. The being that arrives will be a sum of it's parts - male/female or, in this case, a mix of both, but this is an anomally. There is no third ingredient to this. Mixing human seeds and eggs will only ever create another human. So whilst we may get variations of that human, they will never be anything other than that. They will either be male, female or somewhere in between. There isn't a third thing they can be as there isn't a third ingredient, just a variant of the other two.

That's how it works out in my head, anyway.

Leviathan, I'm going to give you more credit now than I did earlier. I don't agree with you, but at least your arguments are interesting and actually have thought. Got me thinking about how we categorise things anyway.

Leviathan, I'm going to give you more credit now than I did earlier. I don't agree with you, but at least your arguments are interesting and actually have thought. Got me thinking about how we categorise things anyway.

That's the problem we have with being human... boxes and labels. I agree that people should be allowed to live their lives as they wish, as long as they don't harm others. However, human nature isn't like that. It's 10 years since Sophie Lancaster was attacked and killed for being different because she was a 'goth'. I'll admit i'm sceptical of the gender-fluid bit. I understand transgender with regard to someone being born one sex but feeling they are the other and going through realignment. That sits logically in my head. And, like you say, it's obviously me that has to get my head around the situation, i just don't feel i've been given enough to change my tune.

I've worked with someone who is gender-fluid and we got on great. Had the same sense of humour and liked the same music. However, when someone looks male and has a male voice, it's hard not to treat them as such even when they're using a female name and wearing feminine clothing. What did confuse the situation is that they were going through realignment, so were they actually fluid afterall? Or was it just part of the transition?

I've worked with someone who is gender-fluid and we got on great. Had the same sense of humour and liked the same music. However, when someone looks male and has a male voice, it's hard not to treat them as such even when they're using a female name and wearing feminine clothing. What did confuse the situation is that they were going through realignment, so were they actually fluid afterall? Or was it just part of the transition?

Does it matter? Perhaps the issue we have is categorising people at all, why not let me be sgtkate and you be leviathan without the need to put us in ANY box beyond that.

Does it matter? Perhaps the issue we have is categorising people at all, why not let me be sgtkate and you be leviathan without the need to put us in ANY box beyond that.

But i do like being boxed in certain ways. I love the fact i'm a metal fan and would hate to be lumped in with chavs and the sort. I'm happy and comfortable being a 'man' and so is my partner... i'm happy her being a 'woman' and, i think' so is she. Does that potentially box me and limit my thinking? I don't think it does.

However, the problem comes when you start to give extra consideration to one group of people which, potentially, changes the lives of others who have experienced the world in a certain way for the time they've been alive.

Gender-fluid people can just choose which toilets to use? Why not just have unisex toilets and stop messing around? I think there would be concern on all three sides about that and, in theory, i don't think it could work 100% as someone would be unhappy. So, we have a gender-neutral toilet... isn't that sort of segregating people when they claim that they want people to accept them for who they are?

But i do like being boxed in certain ways. I love the fact i'm a metal fan and would hate to be lumped in with chavs and the sort. I'm happy and comfortable being a 'man' and so is my partner... i'm happy her being a 'woman' and, i think' so is she. Does that potentially box me and limit my thinking? I don't think it does.

 

However, the problem comes when you start to give extra consideration to one group of people which, potentially, changes the lives of others who have experienced the world in a certain way for the time they've been alive.

 

Gender-fluid people can just choose which toilets to use? Why not just have unisex toilets and stop messing around? I think there would be concern on all three sides about that and, in theory, i don't think it could work 100% as someone would be unhappy. So, we have a gender-neutral toilet... isn't that sort of segregating people when they claim that they want people to accept them for who they are?

Your spot on fella, and of course when you look around modern society and the media, both are actually keen to box and label people more so than ever before.

But i do like being boxed in certain ways. I love the fact i'm a metal fan and would hate to be lumped in with chavs and the sort. I'm happy and comfortable being a 'man' and so is my partner... i'm happy her being a 'woman' and, i think' so is she. Does that potentially box me and limit my thinking? I don't think it does.

 

However, the problem comes when you start to give extra consideration to one group of people which, potentially, changes the lives of others who have experienced the world in a certain way for the time they've been alive.

 

Gender-fluid people can just choose which toilets to use? Why not just have unisex toilets and stop messing around? I think there would be concern on all three sides about that and, in theory, i don't think it could work 100% as someone would be unhappy. So, we have a gender-neutral toilet... isn't that sort of segregating people when they claim that they want people to accept them for who they are?

I've said before that unisex loos are the way to go. The logic behind separated mens and womens toilets was due to an assumed sexual attraction between men and women and that might be uncomfortable for some people, fine. But how does that work in gay clubs? Are gay men uncomfortable peeing next to a guy they might fancy? Are lesbians worried that the girl they've been chatting up all night might hear them pee? It's a bit daft when you think about it. I've been to several gay clubs where they have unisex toilets and no-one even bats an eyelid about it.

However in favour of a third gender neutral toilet would mean I could use it with the same level of guilt when I nip to the disabled if there's a massive queue for the ladies. Win all round I say

But i do like being boxed in certain ways. I love the fact i'm a metal fan and would hate to be lumped in with chavs and the sort. I'm happy and comfortable being a 'man' and so is my partner... i'm happy her being a 'woman' and, i think' so is she. Does that potentially box me and limit my thinking? I don't think it does.

 

However, the problem comes when you start to give extra consideration to one group of people which, potentially, changes the lives of others who have experienced the world in a certain way for the time they've been alive.

 

Gender-fluid people can just choose which toilets to use? Why not just have unisex toilets and stop messing around? I think there would be concern on all three sides about that and, in theory, i don't think it could work 100% as someone would be unhappy. So, we have a gender-neutral toilet... isn't that sort of segregating people when they claim that they want people to accept them for who they are?

Absolutely - good post.

I've said before that unisex loos are the way to go. The logic behind separated mens and womens toilets was due to an assumed sexual attraction between men and women and that might be uncomfortable for some people, fine. But how does that work in gay clubs? Are gay men uncomfortable peeing next to a guy they might fancy? Are lesbians worried that the girl they've been chatting up all night might hear them pee? It's a bit daft when you think about it. I've been to several gay clubs where they have unisex toilets and no-one even bats an eyelid about it.

 

However in favour of a third gender neutral toilet would mean I could use it with the same level of guilt when I nip to the disabled if there's a massive queue for the ladies. Win all round I say

But in fairness sgt, nightclubs - gay or straight - aren't a blueprint on how toilets should be arranged. People are often drunk, have few inhibitions and will **** in a sink if they want to.

That sort of thing won't be tolerated at motorway services. I mean, you've got a coach from the WI queuing up with a coach load of mostly male football supporters - that's not going to work.

But in fairness sgt, nightclubs - gay or straight - aren't a blueprint on how toilets should be arranged. People are often drunk, have few inhibitions and will **** in a sink if they want to.

 

That sort of thing won't be tolerated at motorway services. I mean, you've got a coach from the WI queuing up with a coach load of mostly male football supporters - that's not going to work.

They'd queue in the same queue for a coffee, or fish and chips so why not a toilet?

They'd queue in the same queue for a coffee, or fish and chips so why not a toilet?

Fair comment. I just don't see old people in general happy about mixing with the opposite sex in toilets. I assuming there will still be urinals in these unibogs or they'll have to be massive.