Rowdy hen parties and very sensitive women

The problem with "don't dress provocatively" is that it is relative to what other others are wearing. When you've convinced women to stop wearing short skirts, you'll start telling them not to wear tight jeans, and so on. Eventually you'll be saying "Don't go out without putting on your burka."

Very true.

The problem with "don't dress provocatively" is that it is relative to what other others are wearing. When you've convinced women to stop wearing short skirts, you'll start telling them not to wear tight jeans, and so on. Eventually you'll be saying "Don't go out without putting on your burka."

Absolutely agree.

Without resorting to unequal examples, you end up with the same argument for other situations. Everyone should have rubbish cars so no one tries to steal them. No one should have nice things in their houses, so they don't appeal to burglars. No one should wear football tops that an opposing fan might take offence with.

It's the victim compensating for the actions of others. It's very wrong, but it's become sadly necessary, and the sadder part is that society is very unlikely to change in our lifetime, or even that of our grandchildren.

Absolutely agree.

 

Without resorting to unequal examples, you end up with the same argument for other situations. Everyone should have rubbish cars so no one tries to steal them. No one should have nice things in their houses, so they don't appeal to burglars. No one should wear football tops that an opposing fan might take offence with.

 

It's the victim compensating for the actions of others. It's very wrong, but it's become sadly necessary, and the sadder part is that society is very unlikely to change in our lifetime, or even that of our grandchildren.

I disagree, attitudes change and society changes. Twenty five years ago we could have had a similar conversation about the chances of same sex marriage being available. Could you honestly have predicted that it would be here now?

Isn't the fact we're talking about social attitudes towards women a sign of movement in the right direction?

I was talking with my male friends the other day. Every one of us had had it happen too.

So what?

Are you expecting ukdobby to ask if you reported it?

Or did you want to try to detract from the fact that women are sexually assaulted far more often than men by pointing out that men also suffer from it.

It's not acceptable either way, but it's far more of a problem for women.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:02 ----------

Just looking at this, I can certainly see the issue. I suspect that the people chanting 'it's victim blaming' know full well what posters such as Padders here mean, but don't want to admit it.

 

Of course the person at fault is the United fan (example) who punches the Wednesday fan outside Bramall Lane for his choice of top. Of course it's the assailant at fault.

 

What Padders et al are saying is that everyone has an element of personal responsibility, and if there is something that one can do to limit risks, they should take that step.

 

It's such an obvious concept that insurance companies literally base their products on it.

 

If your car is stolen, and you have left the engine running whilst you've gone inside, good luck claiming the money back.

 

Anyone would agree that the person at fault is the person who stole the car (MASSIVE EDIT THERE!). They chose to steal a car. You don't do that by accident, any more than you punch someone for their choice of top by accident.

 

The fact remains though that you can limit your risks, and insurers see that. You can lock and secure your property, in the same way that as a Wednesday fan, I wouldn't walk down Brammall Lane on a match day in a Wednesday top (not that I'd pay £60 for one).

 

That isn't victim blaming. It's people taking some responsibility for their own safety in the same way that you take responsibility for the safety of your property and don't leave your house unlocked.

When it's applied to women being sexually assaulted in public places, in pubs and clubs or by men they know, it's entirely victim blaming.

It's totally unreasonable to expect women to somehow have to protect themselves from assault by not going out, not getting tipsy, and not having male friends.

So what?

Are you expecting ukdobby to ask if you reported it?

Or did you want to try to detract from the fact that women are sexually assaulted far more often than men by pointing out that men also suffer from it.

It's not acceptable either way, but it's far more of a problem for women.

Of course it should be reported if you don't like it,why is it more a problem for women when it unacceptable both ways.

I did"nt say that at all snailyboy, I said they were asking to be assaulted, there"s a difference.

 

precautions to take? well for a start don"t dress provocatively.

So women now have to dress in an unattractive way in order to avoid being assaulted in bars and clubs... You don't think you might be part of the problem here instead of part of the solution? Because I do.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:05 ----------

Do you agree with Padders that 'don"t dress provocatively' would be a good precaution?

I disagree strongly and fundamentally that it's shifting responsibility to the victim.

Then when you do get someone in court you get an elderly male judge saying the same damn thing. "Well, you practically asked him to assault you, dressed like that", as if the 'poor' sexual predator literally couldn't control himself because of a short skirt and low cut top.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:15 ----------

Again - why does that matter?

Because the amount of threat perceived is directly related to how that behaviour affects someone.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:16 ----------

Does anyone remember QC Lindsay Kutchners closing remarks in a rape case where her closing lines were about women should be free to do anything they want without the fear of being attacked but should take precautions to protect themselves with regards the amount of alcohol they drink and the clothes they wear.

She likened it to securing your home, I believe, stating that no one has the right to break in to your property but we do take precautions against people doing just that.

 

Why do parents tell their young daughters " your not wearing that/ let man know when you get there/I will pick you up"?

 

These are precautions and we take precautions against every risk.

Unfortunately there are men out there who have no moral compass and women have to look after themselves.

It's common sense, not victim blaming.

If you tell someone after an attack that it was there fault for failing to take x/y or z precaution, then it's victim blaming. And that's exactly what happens.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:17 ----------

EDIT- the solution is education and empathy. It always has been, but until now the scales have been so weighted in the opposite direction that the world was not even aware of the routine abuse that occurred.

A large portion appear to still want to deny that it's a problem, or to put the onus for the solution on women, unfortunately.

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:24 ----------

Of course it should be reported if you don't like it,why is it more a problem for women when it unacceptable both ways.

For a start because of the average size and strength difference between the genders. Because of males having a greater propensity for violence and a greater capacity for it.

It's really not complicated to figure this stuff out.

For a start because of the average size and strength difference between the genders. Because of males having a greater propensity for violence and a greater capacity for it.

It's really not complicated to figure this stuff out.

So if a woman attacks a man it's not as bad because she's not as strong as a man.

So women now have to dress in an unattractive way in order to avoid being assaulted in bars and clubs... You don't think you might be part of the problem here instead of part of the solution? Because I do.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:05 ----------

 

 

I disagree strongly and fundamentally that it's shifting responsibility to the victim.

Then when you do get someone in court you get an elderly male judge saying the same damn thing. "Well, you practically asked him to assault you, dressed like that", as if the 'poor' sexual predator literally couldn't control himself because of a short skirt and low cut top.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:15 ----------

 

 

Because the amount of threat perceived is directly related to how that behaviour affects someone.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:16 ----------

 

Don’t be silly - you know full well that people don’t have to be scared or threatened to not want something to be done to them - what about other emotions such as embarrassment, discomfort, , anxiety, stress.

 

Suggesting that if your not scared or threatened it’s somehow more acceptable is incorrect.

 

Suggesting that if your not scared or threatened it’s somehow more acceptable is incorrect.

Did anyone actually suggest that or are you floundering again?

Did anyone actually suggest that or are you floundering again?

No you’re just patronising me again.

The poster said that the amount of threat received is measurable to how much it effects someone. That may be true but why is that important to the discussion- unless for some reason you’re keen to make one example of harassment less than the other.

Why was that the question you put to the guy who said he’d been harassed - and not just some sympathy for the situation?

Why are you trying to establish measure of impact from harassment? Would you have ran that argument if a guy had said a women shouldn’t be bothered by someone grabbing her bum cos she laughed it off and wasn’t scared?

So women now have to dress in an unattractive way in order to avoid being assaulted in bars and clubs... You don't think you might be part of the problem here instead of part of the solution? Because I do.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:05 ----------

 

 

I disagree strongly and fundamentally that it's shifting responsibility to the victim.

Then when you do get someone in court you get an elderly male judge saying the same damn thing. "Well, you practically asked him to assault you, dressed like that", as if the 'poor' sexual predator literally couldn't control himself because of a short skirt and low cut top.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:15 ----------

 

 

Because the amount of threat perceived is directly related to how that behaviour affects someone.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:16 ----------

 

 

If you tell someone after an attack that it was there fault for failing to take x/y or z precaution, then it's victim blaming. And that's exactly what happens.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:17 ----------

 

 

A large portion appear to still want to deny that it's a problem, or to put the onus for the solution on women, unfortunately.

 

---------- Post added 23-10-2017 at 18:24 ----------

 

 

For a start because of the average size and strength difference between the genders. Because of males having a greater propensity for violence and a greater capacity for it.

It's really not complicated to figure this stuff out.

So it's a matter of timing then?

If we now tell women not to dress provocatively prior to going out then that's ok. But if after an incident occurs we remind all women to dress less provocatively then we are victim blaming?

So it's a matter of timing then?

 

If we now tell women not to dress provocatively prior to going out then that's ok. But if after an incident occurs we remind all women to dress less provocatively then we are victim blaming?

I don’t think that’s what they’re saying.

The whole women shouldn’t dress provocatively thing is daft and the previous poster shouldn’t have said it.

It’s one thing exposing yourself by maybe indiscriminately going home with a someone you don’t know - which is risky because your a making yourself vulnerable and alone with that person..

No woman should go out and think they have to dress a way so a man doesn’t harass them whilst they’re out.

Previous posters have given good examples of why that shouldn’t happen which I agree with.