Gender Fluid etc, Opinions?

How do you know this? I thought that scientific studies were split between nurture and nature.

Even if it is nature for the majority of boys to prefer cars for example, what if you have a boy who doesn't and prefers dolls? Would you rather him grow up in a world where people are totally cool with him playing with a doll or would you rather him be forced to be someone he isn't simply to appease 'society'?

The nature/nurture arguments I've seen and studied weren't specially focussed on children but on adults. I also thought that apart from a small number of fairly obvious physical differences that boys and girls are effectively identical until puberty as nearly all the things that make us male and female are down to hormones which are not released until then.

Must have been a different programme. The one I saw showed 7-year-olds with very set opinions on what boys were capable of and what girls were (predominantly in)-capable of. It made me feel really sad. The boys were often super confident, overestimating their abilities, but unable to express emotions, unless it was anger or aggression. The girls were much less demonstrative, often underestimating their abilities. Their behaviours and attitudes were being reinforced, mostly unwittingly, by adults.

 

This is all despite the fact that there is no difference boys' and girls' brains, and until puberty, there's no difference in physical strength or ability.

 

Anything we can do to stop this unnecessary pigeon holing is a good thing, in my opinion. What is it leading to anyway? Unhappy boys, huge suicide rates in young men, girls thinking life as a beautician is the pinnacle of career success?

 

I've seen this reflected in children I know. One friend's little boy absolutely won't accept that girls can become doctors (only nurses), even though most of the GPs he's come across will have been women.

Didn't see the program, although it's on the planner, but this is so different to all the children at my daughter's school (all girls). None of them feel they have any limits; they all believe they can do anything. They are all very confident girls, and I have no doubt will continue to be.

They are all Y2, as of about 3 weeks time, so all 6/7 years old, and not one of them acts in the ways described in this post.

Yes it's an all girl school, and yes it's private school, but I can't believe that it's just the school - the parents must have a huge impact on what their daughters believe they can do. I for one have always told my girl she can achieve anything she sets out to do if she works hard. She currently wants to be a vet, and oddly has done for a while now, and while I'm sure that'll change, she certainly doesn't believe that a beautician is the highest she'll achieve.

As with anything, I suspect it's a split between school influences, friends, and mostly parents. As I said earlier, I do suspect that in many places like Sheffield, there is a view that what you describe is how girls act. Sheffield is very set in its ways in many areas.

How do you know this? I thought that scientific studies were split between nurture and nature.

Just going on what they were saying on the programme. They had neurologist on saying that brain scans showeed no difference. They were also saying there's no difference in physical strength prior to puberty.

Just going on what they were saying on the programme. They had neurologist on saying that brain scans showeed no difference. They were also saying there's no difference in physical strength prior to puberty.

And I think it differs depending on the cultural norms, which would imply nurture.

---------- Post added 21-08-2017 at 16:54 ----------

Didn't see the program, although it's on the planner, but this is so different to all the children at my daughter's school (all girls). None of them feel they have any limits; they all believe they can do anything. They are all very confident girls, and I have no doubt will continue to be.

 

They are all Y2, as of about 3 weeks time, so all 6/7 years old, and not one of them acts in the ways described in this post.

 

Yes it's an all girl school, and yes it's private school, but I can't believe that it's just the school - the parents must have a huge impact on what their daughters believe they can do. I for one have always told my girl she can achieve anything she sets out to do if she works hard. She currently wants to be a vet, and oddly has done for a while now, and while I'm sure that'll change, she certainly doesn't believe that a beautician is the highest she'll achieve.

 

As with anything, I suspect it's a split between school influences, friends, and mostly parents. As I said earlier, I do suspect that in many places like Sheffield, there is a view that what you describe is how girls act. Sheffield is very set in its ways in many areas.

The entire country is very set in it's ways. The cultural norms are so deeply embedded that you probably don't even realise that the girls at the school and your daughter already conform to them.

Middle class parents are great at empowering their children, including daughters, but they still dress them in pink and offer them barbie dolls to play with, whilst they dress their boys in blue and give them action man, or lego, or a scooter.

Didn't see the program, although it's on the planner, but this is so different to all the children at my daughter's school (all girls). None of them feel they have any limits; they all believe they can do anything. They are all very confident girls, and I have no doubt will continue to be.

 

They are all Y2, as of about 3 weeks time, so all 6/7 years old, and not one of them acts in the ways described in this post.

 

Yes it's an all girl school, and yes it's private school, but I can't believe that it's just the school - the parents must have a huge impact on what their daughters believe they can do. I for one have always told my girl she can achieve anything she sets out to do if she works hard. She currently wants to be a vet, and oddly has done for a while now, and while I'm sure that'll change, she certainly doesn't believe that a beautician is the highest she'll achieve.

 

As with anything, I suspect it's a split between school influences, friends, and mostly parents. As I said earlier, I do suspect that in many places like Sheffield, there is a view that what you describe is how girls act. Sheffield is very set in its ways in many areas.

That's really good to hear Andy. I would have thought it would be more like that these days, so I'm really glad it's not across the board. Do give the programme a view though, it's quite an eye opener on how we are bombarding kids with messages, normally without meaning to. Even stuff like the messages contained in the books in the school library had a distinct bias towards princesses and superheroes (no prizes for guessing who was who).

---------- Post added 21-08-2017 at 19:53 ----------

Even if it is nature for the majority of boys to prefer cars for example, what if you have a boy who doesn't and prefers dolls? Would you rather him grow up in a world where people are totally cool with him playing with a doll or would you rather him be forced to be someone he isn't simply to appease 'society'?

 

The nature/nurture arguments I've seen and studied weren't specially focussed on children but on adults. I also thought that apart from a small number of fairly obvious physical differences that boys and girls are effectively identical until puberty as nearly all the things that make us male and female are down to hormones which are not released until then.

Well, that's just the thing, this particular programme was making out that boys aren't predisposed at all by nature to play with cars, or girls with dolls, it's the adults who steer them towards the cultural norms. I'm pretty sure other pieces of research have come to different conclusions, but either way you're right, we force kids into a narrow stereotype.

Of course, the beauty of 'transgender' and 'non-binary' is that it destroys the alleged gender pay gap!

Are you a woman and 'earning' less than a 'man'... simple! Walk in to work, claim you identify as male and, hey presto, your salary will be adjusted accordingly.

Likewise with the law - male rape isn't reported as much as female rape... so if a man is raped then he says that he identifies as female and they will receive more help! Also, female perpetrators tend to receive more lenient sentences than their male counterparts... so if a man commits rape, identify as a female and you'll receive a lesser punishment.

If your 'non-binary' child is kidnapped, the police will be looking for a male/female with long/short hair, dressed in male/female clothing! Responds to him/her/they/zhe/zha etc. pronouns...

In the words of Alan Partridge - it's all just a pain in the arse!

What a load of nonsense that post is, we have a society now that takes offence to anything and everything

Very true. All the swimming pools I've been to recently all have signs in changing rooms stating that you cannot be nude - even in the showers.

The once open changing areas are now all cubicled off.

And this is at pools with separate male & female changing areas.

There are only 2 genders - the rest are just points of the spectrum in between

In the words of Alan Partridge - it's all just a pain in the arse!

Use lubrication.

There are only 2 genders - the rest are just points of the spectrum in between

That's not actually dissimilar to what has been said. Genderfluid people apparently move along that spectrum though, or don't conform rigidly to either extreme.

That's not actually dissimilar to what has been said. Genderfluid people apparently move along that spectrum though, or don't conform rigidly to either extreme.

Exactly... so there are only 2 genders.

Fluidity simply comes in to play when one day they feel feminine and wear a skirt; one day they feel masculine so they wear a t-shirt and maybe anoth day when they feel neither.

They're not displaying signs of a third/fourth/fifth gender as how they're feeling is still either feminine or masculine, they're just choosing not to be solely one or the other.

I don't think there's been a claim about any new genders though has there?