Pointing out differences between men and women, is mysoginistic?

But by the same token, it doesn't state "all" women or "all" men; and without the presence of any qualifier, for me, I'd interpret it to mean a general tendency.

 

---------- Post added 17-11-2018 at 12:34 ----------

 

 

Yeah, it just goes to hilight the importance of clear communication, that isn't so susceptible to misinterpretation.

Isn't this often the case when internet fury ensues over some comment, though?

Most people speak in shorthand, omitting words that can actually make a big difference.

We need to be careful when casting judgement.

Do you both agree with the sentiment that women are not as good as men at the game - or driving?

Do you both agree with the sentiment that women are not as good as men at the game - or driving?

I dont know what the other poster thinks. I'd hazard a guess that men are statistically better on average at chess then women, based purely on the handful of chess champions I have heard of. But that could also be because 'women' find it boring and don't play, or some other reason.

As for driving, I believe 'women' are statistically safer, whereas 'men' are better at motorsport.

In both cases I'm referring to an 'average'.

For me the interesting point is only the discussion about accepting or denying, that, taken as a whole, there are behavioural differences between genders. I believe there are, and dont believe its sexist to think so.

Let's assume that men and women are different; not just physically, but in our general propensity to excel in different areas...

 

Why is mentioning the fact that men are better than women at certain things (and vice versa) mysoginistic?

 

Just curious; as (a bit randomly, oh no, Waldo's off on one again) Kay Burley played the opening move for Magnus Carlsen in round 6 of the World Chess Champs; and previously Kay has had a bit of a twitter spat with British GM, Nigel Short, over his comments on the relative skill levels of men vs women in chess.

 

Kay makes the opening move: https://www.chessable.com/blog/2018/11/16/kay-burley-chess-sky-news/

 

 

Kay suggesting Nigel is mysoginistic on Twitter:

 

Article in the Independant: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/nigel-short-slammed-by-leading-female-chess-players-for-saying-women-are-not-as-good-as-men-at-the-10188487.html

Its not , and never has been .

Do you both agree with the sentiment that women are not as good as men at the game - or driving?

If you look at the current top 100 players on the world (https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men), there is one lady, at position 91. Just considering that one statistic in isolation, you can see how people would conclude that men are better than women at chess.

To be fair however, you would need to consider many other factors before jumping to conclusions. For example, how many people of each gender play chess? If for example, there was only 1 female for every 100 chess players, then only having 1 lady in the top 100 wouldn't mean much.

My gut feeling however is that (on average) men's brains work in such a way that makes chess attractive to them, and makes them (on average) better at the game. It's not really important though, we all (both individually and collectively by gender) have different strengths and weaknesses, and should very much value our own nature and appreciate our own strengths, and weaknesses (and not consider that we are better or worse people because of our natural inclinations and talents etc).

The misogyny occurs when you state, as Nigel Short did, "that women are not as good as men at the game - or driving". It is the implication that all men are better than all women at chess and driving that's both sexist and, to a certain extent misogynistic.

Men ARE better than women at chess. The world rankings show this.

Men are also better at running, jumping, driving, fighting (combat sports), Snooker, football, basketball and most other sports.

Its a fact and calling people misogynistic for pointing this out is quite funny when you think about.

Disclaimer. I don't hate women

Men are different from women. Is anyone arguing that they're not?

""" She also pointed out that former women’s world champion, Judit Polgar, had beaten Mr Short before. """

On 11/17/2018 at 6:55 PM, Ramjit said:

 

Men ARE better than women at chess. The world rankings show this.

Men are also better at running, jumping, driving, fighting (combat sports), Snooker, football, basketball and most other sports.

Its a fact and calling people misogynistic for pointing this out is quite funny when you think about.

 

Disclaimer. I don't hate women

It's really not as simple as you frame it. The differences in abilities between men and women are much less pronounced than the differences between individual men or individual women. Men have historically had more time and money invested in developing their talents over centuries, and in most cultures occupy the gatekeeper positions within every pursuit, career and scholarly endeavour.

We've come a long way since the 18th century, certainly, but to pluck an example at random, Cambridge University only started awarding degrees to women after the second world war, and we still have a long way to go even today.

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On 11/23/2018 at 11:43 PM, Phanerothyme said:

""" She also pointed out that former women’s world champion, Judit Polgar, had beaten Mr Short before. """

 

It's really not as simple as you frame it. The differences in abilities between men and women are much less pronounced than the differences between individual men or individual women. Men have historically had more time and money invested in developing their talents over centuries, and in most cultures occupy the gatekeeper positions within every pursuit, career and scholarly endeavour.

We've come a long way since the 18th century, certainly, but to pluck an example at random, Cambridge University only started awarding degrees to women after the second world war, and we still have a long way to go even today.

That may all well be true but it doesn’t change where we are currently does it.

i wouldn’t argue that  women are as capable as men in some pursuits but perhaps haven’t had the opportunity historically- but I don’t think that justifies where we are now really.

what is preventing a woman becoming a chess champion now?

2 hours ago, makapaka said:

That may all well be true but it doesn’t change where we are currently does it.

 

i wouldn’t argue that  women are as capable as men in some pursuits but perhaps haven’t had the opportunity historically- but I don’t think that justifies where we are now really.

 

what is preventing a woman becoming a chess champion now?

Maybe the fact that they don't want to play chess?

Why don't more men want to get in to beauty? Maybe because they don't want to?

Women have just the same opportunities; no one is stopping a woman doing anything! Maybe, just maybe, more women simply don't want to do the things that feminism is forcing them to think they have to do.

All this "we need 50/50 representation" for equality is not actually equality if it comes at the cost of shaming people in to doing things they aren't happy with.

Many women are happy being mothers and wives and letting their husbands provide financially while they look after the family. But, feminism and SJWs come along telling them that that makes them less than a man and that the only true equality is to work themselves to the bone, chasing the green because that's what men do.

If women don't want to play chess... so what?

44 minutes ago, leviathan13 said:

Maybe the fact that they don't want to play chess?

 

Why don't more men want to get in to beauty? Maybe because they don't want to?

 

Women have just the same opportunities; no one is stopping a woman doing anything! Maybe, just maybe, more women simply don't want to do the things that feminism is forcing them to think they have to do.

 

All this "we need 50/50 representation" for equality is not actually equality if it comes at the cost of shaming people in to doing things they aren't happy with.

 

Many women are happy being mothers and wives and letting their husbands provide financially while they look after the family. But, feminism and SJWs come along telling them that that makes them less than a man and that the only true equality is to work themselves to the bone, chasing the green because that's what men do.

 

If women don't want to play chess... so what?

I agree to an extent but I also believe there is a certain amount of oppression against women.

i just don’t think it’s applicable in every instance and shouldn’t be used as a carte Blanche response to any example of a man being better at a certain task / activity / sport than a man. And the reverse argument accordingly.

4 hours ago, makapaka said:

That may all well be true but it doesn’t change where we are currently does it.

 

i wouldn’t argue that  women are as capable as men in some pursuits but perhaps haven’t had the opportunity historically- but I don’t think that justifies where we are now really.

 

what is preventing a woman becoming a chess champion now?

It doesn't change where we are, but it was addressed to a misconception and oversimplification in someone else's post. Hence the quote at the top of it.

I would argue that saying "women" are, or are not, as capable as "men" in any given pursuit is misguided and futile.

There are things that men do better than women, and vice versa. These things change. Men used to be the typists. Women worked with computers. All because they were at first perceived to be "better", before circumstances changes and social mores adapted by changing who was "better".

It happens all the time, it's happening now, and it's not a matter of empirical fact, is a matter of political discourse.

Misogyny, and it's lesser spotted but equally loathsome cousin misandry, plus the bevy of other hate-fuelled passions are simply the stone bonkers' response to fluctuating social truths.

Comparisons of the differences between men and women must make up 5% of facebook memes at times, and mostly they steer well clear of misogyny etc because the intent is humorous. Certainly, some are a bit close to the bone. But most people know something really hateful when they hear it.