Potential for new / reopened railway stations in Sheffield

Whilst I normally find your posts informative and well reasoned, I would disagree with some of your points here.

Whilst I did say it would be easy to run a connecting line from the Tram stop at Sheffield Station to join the rail formation on the main line, I did not say it would be cheap. It would however go a long way towards solving the issue of congestion in the station..

How are you going to get down to the rail formation from the tram stop, it's a fair drop in level isn't it? If structures are involved it adds significantly to the cost. Adding to costs reduces the benefit cost ratio, negatively affects the business case and makes it less likely that anyone will give you the money to do the line extension.

Raising a couple of hundred million pounds to do a project like that is not easy. The promoter (SYPTE in this case) would have to come up with a local contribution that might be between 25 and 40% of the total cost. Developing the project to Department for Transport Outline business case stage would be entirely at the promoters risk and would not be cheap.

Dealing with Network rail and carrying out works on their land, that potentially have impacts on their track and services (as you are working next to them) is also far from easy.

So, I still fail to see how you contend that it would be "easy".

The fact that this could then be completed as an extension to the existing tram system and add some needed value to it, and be done using existing formations would significantly reduce costs.

The issues round Tesco could be sorted fairly easily with a light rail system and the will to make it work. After All wasn't this part of the sensible but rejected HS2 scheme anyway?

Yes, running on ballasted track is cheaper than putting in the infrastructure on-street, but the downside is that it takes you away from the potential passengers. You need a lot of those to make the business case work, so the closer you can run to where they live, the better. Running light rail alongside heavy rail tracks adds complication and expense too.

By "issues around Tesco" I presume you mean that land purchase would be needed. Again, that is often not simple and it is costly and takes time.

As for heavy rail in the area, I repeat that in my opinion there has been little or no interest from SCC or SYPTE in supporting the existing heavy rail lines let alone helping to develop redundant or freight only lines for further use.

There are a number of areas that would benefit from some well thought out plans that could offer real benefits to potential passengers.

So how come the PTE have a dedicated rail team then?

If the PTE have no interest in supporting heavy rail, who paid for the park and ride sites, for example at Dore Station and Elsecar?

Who also paid for and operates the park and ride sites for supertram?

SYPTE rail team also worked closely with me when I was working in Barnsley commissioning rail studies on potential improvements to the Penistone Line.

Their rail team understand all too well the constraints on the heavy rail network here in Sheffield. The major one being the capacity constraints presented by the approaches to Midland Station. It's immensely difficult to get any more services through there. There are knock-on impacts across the whole national rail network of any timetable changes that are necessary. Rail scheduling is absolutely mind boggling in detail. Availability of rail vehicles is also a major issue. There simply aren't any kicking around waiting to be deployed on new services and new ones cost a fortune.

SYPTE also understand all too well how much rail improvements cost and how difficult they are to deliver. SCC and SYPTE are stakeholders on heavy rail matters. The infrastructure is owned and improved by Network Rail and they have their own priorities and programmes of improvements. SCC/SYPTE can lobby for improvements but they can't dictate to Network Rail.

It's also highly unlikely that SYPTE and SCC could come up with the (frankly huge) amount of money needed to make significant improvements to rail services or provide new tracks, if Network Rail weren't interested in funding them.

SYPTE and SCC concentrate their efforts (and very limited funding) on delivering transport improvements in areas they control or exert a lot of influence over. It's the same in all local authorities. That's why few local authorities have anyone who has expertise in rail.

What about all the other trains going south. 3X Manchester, 2X Birmingham, 3X Nottingham, Chesterfield stopper?

The tracks between Sheffield station and Dore station junction are already timetabled for up to 22 trains an hour. Many of the trains have to crossover at Dore station junction and again at Sheffield south blocking the other tracks- the section is currently at capacity at critical times of the day. To even provide a worthwhile half hourly service would need another four train movements and dwell time as well as the required two for the extra Manchester service.

And plan for HS2?

As it happens I was near Dore Station Junction for some time today and couldn't help noting railway congestion as trains had to wait at preceding signals to clear the junction. I've just checked Realtime Trains and see well over half the trains were running late at that point, and some by large margins.

In order to run HS2 down the Sheaf Valley, and accommodate other extra trains already planned, the slow lines will have to be relaid. Tesco's will have to be compensated, as will others in the way. Whether that might allow another station is debatable. Getting Dore & Totley station restored to having two tracks and platforms has been a saga going back 20 years and there's still no confirmation that it will happen 18 months after the public inquiry!

Nearly every suburban station in Sheffield was uneconomic and closed before Beeching.

 

Very few now serve significant populated areas.

 

None offered a regular clockface service.

 

Arriving at Victoria or Midland necessitated another form of transport to complete the journey.

 

Cars, buses and trams were always a better option.

 

 

Who in their right minds would walk and wait for an irregular, lengthy train service when there is a bus outside which goes to the city centre.

Although I know it won't happen so just generally speaking AB... but here in bold, do you not think that as times have changed [again], and that they could work? - as tram routes

I know these shut pre-Beeching as you said, this was also a time when the roads were a lot quieter.

Although I know it won't happen so just generally speaking AB... but here in bold, do you not think that as times have changed [again], and that they could work? - as tram routes

 

I know these shut pre-Beeching as you said, this was also a time when the roads were a lot quieter.

Yes I do.

Some sections of underused/abandoned train and tram routes could be used as a way of reaching outer suburbs and developments and connecting some towns.

Trams are not a good substitute for buses close to the city centre eg Walkley Millhouses, Crookes but are ideal for growing developments.

There are abandoned/and underused routes out towards Ecclesfield, Mexborough, Treeton, Tinsley, Beighton, Killamarsh etc.

e.g.

Extending the TramTrain from Parkgate to Swinton (or Mexborough)would be relatively easy with potential access to Dearne valley and Barnsley.

or

from Carbrook south towards Treeton, Waveley Beighton etc

Non-of this will happen without finance from central Government, however future seriously major housing developments could attract funding.

It's about where people want to go now and how the city and region develops- not harking back to the pervious failed system.

Yes I do.

 

Some sections of underused/abandoned train and tram routes could be used as a way of reaching outer suburbs and developments and connecting some towns.

Trams are not a good substitute for buses close to the city centre eg Walkley Millhouses, Crookes but are ideal for growing developments.

 

There are abandoned/and underused routes out towards Ecclesfield, Mexborough, Treeton, Tinsley, Beighton, Killamarsh etc.

 

e.g.

Extending the TramTrain from Parkgate to Swinton (or Mexborough)would be relatively easy with potential access to Dearne valley and Barnsley.

or

from Carbrook south towards Treeton, Waveley Beighton etc

 

Non-of this will happen without finance from central Government, however future seriously major housing developments could attract funding.

 

It's about where people want to go now and how the city and region develops- not harking back to the pervious failed system.

Yes, I'm glad you said all this, because some of the documentaries I've watched (London expanding by opening new railways in the past, and Manc/Brum using old lines to build much bigger tram systems, were 2 of them), show that people want this, in today's times, and it can work well.

I've been working in Penistone area lately a lot - I don't know if you've been lately - and noticed loads of new housing estates. It's probably a shame for the locals who like small town, but I couldn't help thinking that because you can get on train to Sheffield or Hudds etc. quite easily and be there hassle free, that these places are really quite tempting places for people to move to to. (hence the house building).

Yes, I'm glad you said all this, because some of the documentaries I've watched (London expanding by opening new railways in the past, and Manc/Brum using old lines to build much bigger tram systems, were 2 of them), show that people want this, in today's times, and it can work well.

 

I've been working in Penistone area lately a lot - I don't know if you've been lately - and noticed loads of new housing estates. It's probably a shame for the locals who like small town, but I couldn't help thinking that because you can get on train to Sheffield or Hudds etc. quite easily and be there hassle free, that these places are really quite tempting places for people to move to to. (hence the house building).

And future large scale developments would be a way of making the case for the Deepcar route stronger

Meanwhile, up in the North-East, where Sunderland and Gateshead can't bear the idea of getting into bed with Newcastle and Northumberland, they've just had a large investment confirmed yesterday for new Metro trains. See; http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/new-metros-track-north-east-13939496

The old ones will be 40 years old before they're replaced. Additilonal lines to places like Washington, Blyth, the Metro Centre and the west side of Newcastle have all been requested, but like here a strong business case has yet to be confirmed for any of them. Old railway lines still exist for some of them

And future large scale developments would be a way of making the case for the Deepcar route stronger

Though obviously an expensive job, the Deepcar to Sheffield seems like a good use of old route.

I think it could possibly have gone right into that new development in Stocksbridge until I looked at this map, and looks like they've now built over it.

see here (using slider)

Meanwhile, up in the North-East, where Sunderland and Gateshead can't bear the idea of getting into bed with Newcastle and Northumberland, they've just had a large investment confirmed yesterday for new Metro trains. See; http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/new-metros-track-north-east-13939496

 

The old ones will be 40 years old before they're replaced. Additilonal lines to places like Washington, Blyth, the Metro Centre and the west side of Newcastle have all been requested, but like here a strong business case has yet to be confirmed for any of them. Old railway lines still exist for some of them

Out of the 3 proposals I can only see the Blyth one getting to go ahead.

The case for that is stronger than the others.

Also a bit of perspective on the trains age.

Due to a **** up on the building of one of the underground stations the full fleet was not used for many years meaning that despite their age in years, in real terms most have not worked for much more than half of that time, albeit on rotation.

Though obviously an expensive job, the Deepcar to Sheffield seems like a good use of old route.

 

I think it could possibly have gone right into that new development in Stocksbridge until I looked at this map, and looks like they've now built over it.

 

see here (using slider)

Actually I suggest that Stocksbridge/Deepcar to Sheffield as a tram, tram train, light rail or train is a complete and utter waste of time, effort and attention, unless it is part of a much bigger project which creates a much larger population.

By that I mean at least doubling the populations of Stocksbridge and Penistone, Silkstone to Barnsley areas, populating the whole of the valley from Deepcar to Parkwood Springs. Massive Park and Ride facilities at Penistone Deepcar, Wadsley Bridge and Parkwood and a connection to the current tram route at Shalesmoor and then on directly to the city centre and Moorfoot via Angel Street.

Tiny developments are not going to generate the funding and the current route just will not attract enough passengers.

Actually I suggest that Stocksbridge/Deepcar to Sheffield as a tram, tram train, light rail or train is a complete and utter waste of time, effort and attention, unless it is part of a much bigger project which creates a much larger population.

By that I mean at least doubling the populations of Stocksbridge and Penistone, Silkstone to Barnsley areas, populating the whole of the valley from Deepcar to Parkwood Springs. Massive Park and Ride facilities at Penistone Deepcar, Wadsley Bridge and Parkwood and a connection to the current tram route at Shalesmoor and then on directly to the city centre and Moorfoot via Angel Street.

 

Tiny developments are not going to generate the funding and the current route just will not attract enough passengers.

Yes I suppose so. A problem with these ideas too, is that little bits have been built on since, meaning routing much more difficult (expensive)

Out of the 3 proposals I can only see the Blyth one getting to go ahead.

The case for that is stronger than the others.

Also a bit of perspective on the trains age.

Due to a **** up on the building of one of the underground stations the full fleet was not used for many years meaning that despite their age in years, in real terms most have not worked for much more than half of that time, albeit on rotation.

They've been refurbished recently at Doncaster Works too.