Sheffield Forum
Your message here

Latest Tree Felling, Sandford Grove Rd etc .

Home > Sheffield > Sheffield News & Discussions

Reply To Topic
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
27-05-2018, 22:31   #1881
hackey lad
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2011
Total Posts: 3,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
They a VERY DIFFERENT type of tree. Are you being disingenuous?
Hes doing what he always does , trying to be clever but failing miserably Its been said many times on here about the type of tree that will be planted but he seems to ignore it
  Reply With Quote
27-05-2018, 23:37   #1882
redfox
Account Closed
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Total Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by makapaka View Post
The square will look much better - there will be plenty of trees in it which in years to come will mature like the ones they are replacing- 12 of them no less.

Whilst I donít always agree I accept some of the views on street tree removal - however this sort of objection could have potentially held the redevelopment back unnecessarily.

Which views on street tree removal do you accept?
You have spent months and months (on overtime) arguing the toss on the subject - claiming to have inside knowledge and when challenged cried that you didn't and never claimed that you did - spending a lunch hour I seem to recall looking at the contract, lord knows for whose benefit - and the same heavily redacted one we could all see.

Council employee of the year !
  Reply With Quote
27-05-2018, 23:43   #1883
makapaka
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Total Posts: 3,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox View Post
Which views on street tree removal do you accept?
You have spent months and months (on overtime) arguing the toss on the subject - claiming to have inside knowledge and when challenged cried that you didn't and never claimed that you did - spending a lunch hour I seem to recall looking at the contract, lord knows for whose benefit - and the same heavily redacted one we could all see.

Council employee of the year !
No you made all that up about claiming inside knowledge.

I’m just pleased that fitzalan square is going to get sorted out because it’s tired, dark and dingey.

4 trees are getting chopped down and they’re going to plant some more to replace them and the whole square will look a lot better.

You carry on with your conspiracy theories me old.

---------- Post added 27-05-2018 at 23:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hackey lad View Post
Hes doing what he always does , trying to be clever but failing miserably Its been said many times on here about the type of tree that will be planted but he seems to ignore it
Of course it a different tree - so what? You wouldnít have given it a seconds thought if theyíd done this redevelopment 10 years ago.

What do you think about the peace gardens? A good few trees came out when they did that redevelopment- did you put a complaint in at the time?
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 10:09   #1884
Cyclone
Registered User
Cyclone's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wadlsey
Total Posts: 71,116
Status: Online
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae View Post
What type of tree will be planted?
Perhaps you could just read back a few posts. And yes, I'm aware that we don't know the exact species, we do know that the type though, as do you.
_______
Ask yourself, what would Chuck Norris do?
Youtube videos, snowboarding, climbing, bad drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmn...qpXEZMGnJHf3Wg
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 11:09   #1885
Eater Sundae
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Total Posts: 7,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Perhaps you could just read back a few posts. And yes, I'm aware that we don't know the exact species, we do know that the type though, as do you.
I asked a serious question. I'd looked at the planning document on the council website and seen that they had said fastigiate, but I'd not seen anything else. A line of trees each having a tall, thin shape seems to me, on the face of it, a good idea, as they could provide screening, as well as needing minimal future maintenance as they generally grow upwards, not outwards.

An important point of any planting, IMO, is the correct choice of tree. Anyone can see that if fastigiate trees had been chosen for the central reservation of Hanover Way instead of the trees that are there, they wouldn't have overhung a major carriageway at lowish level and require regular pruning just to let large vehicles use a major urban road.

In the case of Fitzalan Square, several people have been dismissive of the trees being chosen. I presumed that this must have been because they knew the actual type of tree. However, if it is based solely on the fact that the trees are of a fastigiate type, it looks more like a wish to criticize the Council just on principal.

Just for the ill informed, fastigiate trees can include such as 3ft high dwarf conifers such as you might see in a plant pot or rockery. Equally, they can include 100 ft plus Leylandii. Hence my question. Maybe this is an appropriate place to put a "roll eyes" emoji.

There is probably a case for further questioning the designers and developers to determine the actual tree to be used, to allow an informed view, or criticise them if they are not prepared to say what they will plant.

However, criticising the choice of tree as being inadequate without even knowing the choice of tree is frankly ridiculous, and looks like prejudices leaking out.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 11:22   #1886
redfox
Account Closed
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Total Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by makapaka View Post
No you made all that up about claiming inside knowledge.

Iím just pleased that fitzalan square is going to get sorted out because itís tired, dark and dingey.

4 trees are getting chopped down and theyíre going to plant some more to replace them and the whole square will look a lot better.

You carry on with your conspiracy theories me old.

---------- Post added 27-05-2018 at 23:52 ----------



Of course it a different tree - so what? You wouldnít have given it a seconds thought if theyíd done this redevelopment 10 years ago.

What do you think about the peace gardens? A good few trees came out when they did that redevelopment- did you put a complaint in at the time?



No - you got called out and fell flat on your face - I don't have theories I just read your blind repetitive defence of the council - whatever anyone said you defended - claiming to know what was in the contract when you plainly did not and had no more access to it than anyone else.

I made nothing up - the evidence is there for all to see -
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 12:15   #1887
Robin-H
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2015
Total Posts: 2,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longcol View Post
I can't see anything factually wrong with his report - just your assertion that in Fitzalan Square we had "large canopied mature trees".
Other have suggested that 'most' of his report was correct. I was wondering what the incorrect parts were.

I disagree that it was wrong to state that the trees in Fitzalan Sq were mature or large canopied. Yes, they were in early maturity, but that still means that they were mature, just like if you are in early adulthood you are still an adult.

I don't believe that there is a sudden size where a canopy of a tree is defined as 'large' and so this will always be subjective. Of course more mature London Planes will have more sizeable canopies, such as the one in the photo you linked to, however that of course doesn't mean that every one smaller is automatically a small canopy.

I consider the trees to have had sizeable canopies - indeed they were some of the largest remaining trees in Sheffield City Centre (which is also stated in the tree report). The replacement fastigiate trees will be significantly smaller, having almost no canopy at all (think of the ones outside the Light cinema).

---------- Post added 28-05-2018 at 12:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae View Post
I asked a serious question. I'd looked at the planning document on the council website and seen that they had said fastigiate, but I'd not seen anything else. A line of trees each having a tall, thin shape seems to me, on the face of it, a good idea, as they could provide screening, as well as needing minimal future maintenance as they generally grow upwards, not outwards.

An important point of any planting, IMO, is the correct choice of tree. Anyone can see that if fastigiate trees had been chosen for the central reservation of Hanover Way instead of the trees that are there, they wouldn't have overhung a major carriageway at lowish level and require regular pruning just to let large vehicles use a major urban road.

In the case of Fitzalan Square, several people have been dismissive of the trees being chosen. I presumed that this must have been because they knew the actual type of tree. However, if it is based solely on the fact that the trees are of a fastigiate type, it looks more like a wish to criticize the Council just on principal.

Just for the ill informed, fastigiate trees can include such as 3ft high dwarf conifers such as you might see in a plant pot or rockery. Equally, they can include 100 ft plus Leylandii. Hence my question. Maybe this is an appropriate place to put a "roll eyes" emoji.

There is probably a case for further questioning the designers and developers to determine the actual tree to be used, to allow an informed view, or criticise them if they are not prepared to say what they will plant.

However, criticising the choice of tree as being inadequate without even knowing the choice of tree is frankly ridiculous, and looks like prejudices leaking out.
I don't agree at all. People are criticising the type of tree precisely because of the specific shape that type of tree grows into. It doesn't matter if it was a 100ft Leylandii or a 3ft high draft conifer, it is the lack of canopy which is being criticised.

As it happens, we can have a pretty good idea of exactly what the replacement trees will look like, as the planning report references the other fastigiate trees planted in Sheffield public realm in the city centre, so we only have to look at those.

Last edited by Robin-H; 28-05-2018 at 12:22.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 13:46   #1888
Longcol
Registered User
Longcol's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Perigord Noir
Total Posts: 14,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin-H View Post
Other have suggested that 'most' of his report was correct. I was wondering what the incorrect parts were.

I disagree that it was wrong to state that the trees in Fitzalan Sq were mature or large canopied. Yes, they were in early maturity, but that still means that they were mature, just like if you are in early adulthood you are still an adult.

I don't believe that there is a sudden size where a canopy of a tree is defined as 'large' and so this will always be subjective. Of course more mature London Planes will have more sizeable canopies, such as the one in the photo you linked to, however that of course doesn't mean that every one smaller is automatically a small canopy.
According to this, https://www.arborday.org/trees/treeg...cfm?ItemID=904 a mature London Plane is between 75ft and 100ft tall with a spread of 80ft.

According to the SCC report https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...RE-1153346.pdf the trees in Fitzalan Square are 14m high (46ft) with a spread of 12m (39ft) - so less than half the size of a mature tree.

Using your human analogy, early maturity here is more early adolescence compared to a full grown adult in their prime.
_______
Living the dream.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 14:57   #1889
Eater Sundae
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Total Posts: 7,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longcol View Post
According to this, https://www.arborday.org/trees/treeg...cfm?ItemID=904 a mature London Plane is between 75ft and 100ft tall with a spread of 80ft.

According to the SCC report https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...RE-1153346.pdf the trees in Fitzalan Square are 14m high (46ft) with a spread of 12m (39ft) - so less than half the size of a mature tree.

Using your human analogy, early maturity here is more early adolescence compared to a full grown adult in their prime.
Half the diameter of a full size tree equates to one quarter of the area. And along with half the height and it becomes more like one eighth of the effective leaf area.

---------- Post added 28-05-2018 at 15:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longcol View Post
According to this, https://www.arborday.org/trees/treeg...cfm?ItemID=904 a mature London Plane is between 75ft and 100ft tall with a spread of 80ft.

According to the SCC report https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...RE-1153346.pdf the trees in Fitzalan Square are 14m high (46ft) with a spread of 12m (39ft) - so less than half the size of a mature tree.

Using your human analogy, early maturity here is more early adolescence compared to a full grown adult in their prime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin-H View Post
Other have suggested that 'most' of his report was correct. I was wondering what the incorrect parts were.

I disagree that it was wrong to state that the trees in Fitzalan Sq were mature or large canopied. Yes, they were in early maturity, but that still means that they were mature, just like if you are in early adulthood you are still an adult.

I don't believe that there is a sudden size where a canopy of a tree is defined as 'large' and so this will always be subjective. Of course more mature London Planes will have more sizeable canopies, such as the one in the photo you linked to, however that of course doesn't mean that every one smaller is automatically a small canopy.

I consider the trees to have had sizeable canopies - indeed they were some of the largest remaining trees in Sheffield City Centre (which is also stated in the tree report). The replacement fastigiate trees will be significantly smaller, having almost no canopy at all (think of the ones outside the Light cinema).

---------- Post added 28-05-2018 at 12:26 ----------



I don't agree at all. People are criticising the type of tree precisely because of the specific shape that type of tree grows into. It doesn't matter if it was a 100ft Leylandii or a 3ft high draft conifer, it is the lack of canopy which is being criticised.

As it happens, we can have a pretty good idea of exactly what the replacement trees will look like, as the planning report references the other fastigiate trees planted in Sheffield public realm in the city centre, so we only have to look at those.
I think that’s a reasonable view to have a preference for broader canopy trees, but it is just a personal, subjective preference. This thread is littered with claims that the replacements will increase risk of flooding, reduce biodiversity, remove habitat for birds and bats etc. Until we know what the replacements will be, it is not possible to objectively comment. (Edit: And even then I doubt there are many, or possibly even any, who are able to relate any particular tree with its likely associated bugs, bacteria, fungi, birds etc to definitively state whether the changes are environmentally good or bad). Until the trees are known, such claims are unfounded. Hence my assertion that such claims, made as facts, are more about having a dig at the council than about the real situation. It is a political slur, Masquerading as concern for the environment.

Last edited by Eater Sundae; 28-05-2018 at 15:32.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 16:01   #1890
makapaka
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Total Posts: 3,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox View Post
No - you got called out and fell flat on your face - I don't have theories I just read your blind repetitive defence of the council - whatever anyone said you defended - claiming to know what was in the contract when you plainly did not and had no more access to it than anyone else.

I made nothing up - the evidence is there for all to see -
Itís really not - if I remember rightly I said I would look at the contract and you made up that was me saying I had access to it - when I was just saying I would look on the website.

You donít have to agree with my points but Iíve never lied on here - Iíve no cause to.

You seem to have some agenda to make me out to be something Iím not - thatís your problem not mine. Have you even put an opinion on the point in discussion or just attacked me again - I lose track.

---------- Post added 28-05-2018 at 16:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater Sundae View Post
Half the diameter of a full size tree equates to one quarter of the area. And along with half the height and it becomes more like one eighth of the effective leaf area.

---------- Post added 28-05-2018 at 15:07 ----------





I think thatís a reasonable view to have a preference for broader canopy trees, but it is just a personal, subjective preference. This thread is littered with claims that the replacements will increase risk of flooding, reduce biodiversity, remove habitat for birds and bats etc. Until we know what the replacements will be, it is not possible to objectively comment. (Edit: And even then I doubt there are many, or possibly even any, who are able to relate any particular tree with its likely associated bugs, bacteria, fungi, birds etc to definitively state whether the changes are environmentally good or bad). Until the trees are known, such claims are unfounded. Hence my assertion that such claims, made as facts, are more about having a dig at the council than about the real situation. It is a political slur, Masquerading as concern for the environment.
Totally agree - I only wish I could have put it as eloquently myself.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 16:46   #1891
Cyclone
Registered User
Cyclone's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wadlsey
Total Posts: 71,116
Status: Online
It's not eloquently put when you investigate and realise that it's just flimflam is it.
We do have a good idea what the trees will be and all the claims are in fact correct aren't they.
_______
Ask yourself, what would Chuck Norris do?
Youtube videos, snowboarding, climbing, bad drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmn...qpXEZMGnJHf3Wg
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 16:56   #1892
Robin-H
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2015
Total Posts: 2,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longcol View Post
According to this, https://www.arborday.org/trees/treeg...cfm?ItemID=904 a mature London Plane is between 75ft and 100ft tall with a spread of 80ft.

According to the SCC report https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...RE-1153346.pdf the trees in Fitzalan Square are 14m high (46ft) with a spread of 12m (39ft) - so less than half the size of a mature tree.

Using your human analogy, early maturity here is more early adolescence compared to a full grown adult in their prime.
You're arguing the wrong thing.

Nobody has said that they are large examples of London Plane trees, and therefore the fact that London Plane trees can grow bigger than the ones in Fitzalan Square is irrelevant.

It is the comparison with the trees in Fitzalan Square with any other trees that was the point I was making. They were some of largest trees in the city centre, and had large canopies compared with not only the other trees in the city centre, but fully grown mature trees of other species.
  Reply With Quote
28-05-2018, 17:32   #1893
Eater Sundae
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Total Posts: 7,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
It's not eloquently put when you investigate and realise that it's just flimflam is it.
We do have a good idea what the trees will be and all the claims are in fact correct aren't they.
What are the trees?

What birds, mammals and insects made use of the old trees?

What birds, mammals and insects will make use of the new trees?

Will the change be a net improvement? If not, what will the loss if any be?

Will the proposed design (trees and grass) provide an improvement or not in terms of flood prevention? Can you quantify any changes

Maybe it’s about time you put up or shut up as you clearly know so much, or claim to.

Last edited by Eater Sundae; 28-05-2018 at 17:53. Reason: Typo
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 07:23   #1894
Cyclone
Registered User
Cyclone's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Wadlsey
Total Posts: 71,116
Status: Online
Robin has already answered most of these questions I think.
_______
Ask yourself, what would Chuck Norris do?
Youtube videos, snowboarding, climbing, bad drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmn...qpXEZMGnJHf3Wg
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 07:27   #1895
makapaka
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Total Posts: 3,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Robin has already answered most of these questions I think.
Has he? In which post?
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 08:31   #1896
monkey104
Registered User
 
Joined: May 2010
Total Posts: 3,641
I passed the square for the first time in quite a while last night and noticed the missing trees.
My first thoughts were, where are we going to escape the searing sun, how is the ground water going to drain away, what are we going to do without all the bird droppings on the floor, they used to be a lovely shape and I wonder what shape the new trees are going to be?
No, actually I didn’t give a monkey’s. I just thought it looked nice and tidy.
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 09:07   #1897
the fonz
Registered User
the fonz's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Total Posts: 709
How many people actually use square other than to walk past? are people seriously arguing the space hasnt benefited from being opened up?

Perhaps the wrong tress were planted in the first place as suitable trees are ones which work and create a usable pleasant space. Fitzalen Square wasnt that.
_______
You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist.
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 10:14   #1898
Eater Sundae
Registered User
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Total Posts: 7,151
Can somebody provide a link to the planning document for Fitzalan Square that is on the Sheffield.gov website. It is a document with a lot of embedded documents, including layout drawings, report on existing trees etc. I know itís there as Iíve seen it before but I canít find it again. I must be looking in the wrong part of their site, but canít remember what I must have done differently before. Thanks.
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 10:28   #1899
cgksheff
Registered User
cgksheff's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Total Posts: 23,143
All Public Documents:
https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...=OX1IUENYM0500


Tree Survey Report:
https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...RE-1153346.pdf

Planning Report:
https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...LL-1153348.pdf

Visualisation:
https://planningapps.sheffield.gov.u...7_-1166299.pdf
_______
The 'avatar' that you see with the SF letters and the circle (regardless of colours) has copyright established since 2004.

Last edited by cgksheff; 29-05-2018 at 10:33.
  Reply With Quote
29-05-2018, 10:30   #1900
Robin-H
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2015
Total Posts: 2,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey104 View Post
I passed the square for the first time in quite a while last night and noticed the missing trees.
My first thoughts were, where are we going to escape the searing sun, how is the ground water going to drain away, what are we going to do without all the bird droppings on the floor, they used to be a lovely shape and I wonder what shape the new trees are going to be?
No, actually I didnít give a monkeyís. I just thought it looked nice and tidy.
And some people do think those things. Whatís your point?
  Reply With Quote
Reply To Topic

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:48.
POSTS ON THIS FORUM ARE NOT ACTIVELY MONITORED
Click "Report Post" under any post which may breach our terms of use.
©2002-2017 Sheffield Forum | Powered by vBulletin ©2018