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The Consequences of Brexit (part 2)

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22-10-2016, 07:44   #1
unbeliever
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This is (with kind permission from Medusa) a thread to replace the closed The consequence thread which was closed largely because people kept running to the moderators and asking them to take sides.
Also do remember people (and this includes me) that swearing masked with stars or other symbols is against the rules.
We've been given a second chance here people for something I know many of us want to discuss. Let's not mess it up (this includes me as I'm as much at fault as anybody).
 
22-10-2016, 08:03   #2
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This is (with kind permission from Medusa) a thread to replace the closed The consequence thread which was closed largely because people kept running to the moderators and asking them to take sides.
Also do remember people (and this includes me) that swearing masked with stars or other symbols is against the rules.
We've been given a second chance here people for something I know many of us want to discuss. Let's not mess it up (this includes me as I'm as much at fault as anybody).
Our government will be more accountable, some people will be happy with the consequences and some won't, the unhappy people will be able to vote for someone else that might introduce policies that will make them happy.

I have one prediction, trying to discuss this topic will lead to it being closed.
 
22-10-2016, 09:08   #3
unbeliever
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Our government will be more accountable, some people will be happy with the consequences and some won't, the unhappy people will be able to vote for someone else that might introduce policies that will make them happy.

I have one prediction, trying to discuss this topic will lead to it being closed.
The last thread lasted quite a long time. It was started the day after the vote.

You give a pretty accurate description of the importance of sovereignty to government accountability.

Myself I came to realise that I can tolerate a degree of technocracy as long as it is backed up by some democratic accountability. But there are limits and the EU has gone way beyond them. The big thing for me I think was when the competence of energy was transferred to the EU and the resulting policies which I strongly objected to. But with the competence transferred, to whom do I object?
 
22-10-2016, 10:26   #4
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The last thread lasted quite a long time. It was started the day after the vote.

You give a pretty accurate description of the importance of sovereignty to government accountability.

Myself I came to realise that I can tolerate a degree of technocracy as long as it is backed up by some democratic accountability. But there are limits and the EU has gone way beyond them. The big thing for me I think was when the competence of energy was transferred to the EU and the resulting policies which I strongly objected to. But with the competence transferred, to whom do I object?
Firstly - thanks for negotiating the re-opening of the thread.

On the competence of energy - it was transferred to the EU but left to national governments to implement. As I have mentioned several times before: The UK government decided to go above and beyond the call in setting its targets. So you should have objected to your own government, not the EU.
 
22-10-2016, 10:28   #5
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Firstly - thanks for negotiating the re-opening of the thread.

On the competence of energy - it was transferred to the EU but left to national governments to implement. As I have mentioned several times before: The UK government decided to go above and beyond the call in setting its targets. So you should have objected to your own government, not the EU.
Not at all. Thanks for starting the first one.

On energy again. Yes the government has 110% implemented what they were directed to by the EU. But I don't want to argue with my government over the extra 10%. I want to address the 100%. That is an EU matter.
 
22-10-2016, 14:48   #6
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Not at all. Thanks for starting the first one.

On energy again. Yes the government has 110% implemented what they were directed to by the EU. But I don't want to argue with my government over the extra 10%. I want to address the 100%. That is an EU matter.
And as I have pointed out before - the UK government could have blocked the EU from implementing it, would it have chosen to do so

Ah it feels good to be talking about the same circle of life again!
 
22-10-2016, 15:29   #7
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And as I have pointed out before - the UK government could have blocked the EU from implementing it, would it have chosen to do so
Quite.

And often EU policies have actually started life as proposals from the UK. Pretending that "the EU made us do it" is known as policy laundering.
 
22-10-2016, 16:01   #8
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And as I have pointed out before - the UK government could have blocked the EU from implementing it, would it have chosen to do so

Ah it feels good to be talking about the same circle of life again!
When the population are unhappy with government policy the government will no longer have anyone but themselves to blame, which leaves the British public with more power over the policies that government implement.
 
22-10-2016, 16:32   #9
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When the population are unhappy with government policy the government will no longer have anyone but themselves to blame, which leaves the British public with more power over the policies that government implement.
Indeed. Precious little stability though (once labour sort themselves out). Look at education. With every new government there's a new and better way to educate kids.
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22-10-2016, 17:05   #10
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When the population are unhappy with government policy the government will no longer have anyone but themselves to blame, which leaves the British public with more power over the policies that government implement.
It won't achieve anything though, will it? In practice the key-issues were all agreed to by the UK government. The public might not like it, but to govern means to make harsh decisions at times. Leaving the EU won't change that position at all. In fact, it will probably make the decisions more volatile as the EU had a levelling effect.
 
22-10-2016, 17:09   #11
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It won't achieve anything though, will it? In practice the key-issues were all agreed to by the UK government. The public might not like it, but to govern means to make harsh decisions at times. Leaving the EU won't change that position at all. In fact, it will probably make the decisions more volatile as the EU had a levelling effect.

I'm wholly unconvinced that volatility in policy is worse than stability. Democracy is volatile by nature, but it's still the best system we have.
We have to acknowledge that we don't really know what truly optimal policy is, and that being the case, stability is not necessarily a virtue.
 
22-10-2016, 17:30   #12
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Truly optimal policy is where every citizen on the planet has a say on matters that affect us all.
 
22-10-2016, 18:12   #13
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Truly optimal policy is where every citizen on the planet has a say on matters that affect us all.
Okay. What about matters that primarily affect one nation and have zero or minimal effect on the rest of the world?
 
22-10-2016, 18:19   #14
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This is (with kind permission from Medusa) a thread to replace the closed The consequence thread which was closed largely because people kept running to the moderators and asking them to take sides.
Also do remember people (and this includes me) that swearing masked with stars or other symbols is against the rules.
We've been given a second chance here people for something I know many of us want to discuss. Let's not mess it up (this includes me as I'm as much at fault as anybody).
I imagine that once the UK has left the EU they will be able to conclude trade deals with countries like Canada without folk in Wallonia vetoing things after 7 years of trying to forge a deal.
 
22-10-2016, 19:03   #15
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Indeed. Precious little stability though (once labour sort themselves out). Look at education. With every new government there's a new and better way to educate kids.
Stability without change every five years would be a dictatorship, and we all know how that ends.

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 19:07 ----------

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Truly optimal policy is where every citizen on the planet has a say on matters that affect us all.
No point having a say if what you say is ignored.
 
22-10-2016, 19:16   #16
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Stability without change every five years would be a dictatorship, and we all know how that ends.

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 19:07 ----------



No point having a say if what you say is ignored.
48% (too short)
 
22-10-2016, 19:44   #17
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48% (too short)
The 48% haven't been ignored, they want to be in the EU and we have been in the EU for decades, the 52% have been ignored until now, now its time for the 52% to have it their way for a few decades.
 
22-10-2016, 20:01   #18
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The 48% haven't been ignored, they want to be in the EU and we have been in the EU for decades, the 52% have been ignored until now, now its time for the 52% to have it their way for a few decades.
A similar thing has happened in America, where about 48% of voters didn't vote for Obama and he has ignored them twice by residing in the White House for the last 8 years.
 
22-10-2016, 20:03   #19
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The 48% haven't been ignored, they want to be in the EU and we have been in the EU for decades, the 52% have been ignored until now, now its time for the 52% to have it their way for a few decades.
So when was the UK citizen ignored in the EU?
 
22-10-2016, 20:08   #20
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So when was the UK citizen ignored in the EU?
Every day since the day we joined.
 
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