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21-09-2018, 01:17   #81
1978
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This is where it gets more confusing. I previously linked the Sheffield City Region Transport Strategy.

Sheffield City Council should be launching a consultation for their strategy and it may be announced within the next few weeks. This is what was produced in June 2018; http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/do...rategy%202.pdf
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21-09-2018, 07:25   #82
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Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
They are looking to widen the approaches to the M1 J33 junction.
Make the approaches as wide as a runway, the roundabout will still be the bottleneck unless more lanes appear from somewhere (and I'm not even sure how more lanes would work).
Quote:
It won't get built if there's no money and funding will only be provided if there's a business case for it, which there isn't.
What kind of business case is needed. There appear to be enough people living and working there to make use of public transport, they don't use it because it doesn't exist, so because they don't use it it doesn't get built?
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21-09-2018, 08:23   #83
alchemist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Make the approaches as wide as a runway, the roundabout will still be the bottleneck unless more lanes appear from somewhere (and I'm not even sure how more lanes would work).

What kind of business case is needed. There appear to be enough people living and working there to make use of public transport, they don't use it because it doesn't exist, so because they don't use it it doesn't get built?
I have been rewatching that brilliant series Yes Minister/Prime Minister and that argument sounds VERY familiar
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21-09-2018, 09:10   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Make the approaches as wide as a runway, the roundabout will still be the bottleneck unless more lanes appear from somewhere (and I'm not even sure how more lanes would work).

What kind of business case is needed. There appear to be enough people living and working there to make use of public transport, they don't use it because it doesn't exist, so because they don't use it it doesn't get built?
You aren't a highway designer. The people working on the project are. They can clearly see a way of improving congestion or they would not be bothering with the scheme.

When bidding to Department for Major Transport Scheme funding, scheme promoters have to develop a business case and carry out analysis using the DfT's WebTAG methodology: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transpor...uidance-webtag

They have to provide a thorough analysis the economic and environmental impacts, identify the benefits and arrive at a benefit / cost ratio.

The promoter develops and submits an outline business case and if that is accepted, they then further refine the scheme and develop/submit a full business case.

It's a time consuming and expensive process. To give you an example, on the highway scheme that SCC are developing in the M1 Junction 33/34 area, it's costing £1.2m to deliver the Outline Business Case (which is for a potentially £200m scheme).

---------- Post added 21-09-2018 at 09:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1978 View Post
This is where it gets more confusing. I previously linked the Sheffield City Region Transport Strategy.

Sheffield City Council should be launching a consultation for their strategy and it may be announced within the next few weeks. This is what was produced in June 2018; http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/do...rategy%202.pdf
Nothing unusual in that.

The city region transport strategy is the Local Transport Plan, which is a statutory document that local authority highway authorities have to produce every few years.

Underneath that, individual authorities may have their own strategies which will reflect how the city region strategy is being implemented at local level.

Policies and strategies are the basis on which the authorities can bid for funding (usually from Government). One of the first questions you have to answer in any bid is how does this project fit with policy at local, regional and national level.

---------- Post added 21-09-2018 at 09:30 ----------

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Originally Posted by alchemist View Post
Seems a perfectly sensible suggestion, why NOT have it here??
Personally I think it's a good way of raising funding, but I can see some issues which need to be overcome:
  • It's highly likely that major employers will actively campaign against it (they did in Nottingham)
  • It's highly likely that employers would say that they will leave the city if it's implemented (they did in Nottingham)
  • We live in Yorkshire where no-one wants to pay for anything, so it will probably attract quite a bit of public resistance

Councillors, who have to approve all of this, will rightly be nervous about the potential for it to loose them votes and for it to potentially be a barrier to inward investment. They won't want Sheffield to be seen as not open for business.

As I understand it, no companies actually left Nottingham when the levy was implemented, although there was a very strong resistance to it led by some big companies. I understand one company left fairly recently saying it was a contributory factor.
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21-09-2018, 13:57   #85
derek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchemist View Post
I have been rewatching that brilliant series Yes Minister/Prime Minister and that argument sounds VERY familiar
Sounds just like the airport farce. Remove facilities so it can't be used then claim lack of use as grounds for closure.
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22-09-2018, 09:04   #86
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post

What kind of business case is needed. There appear to be enough people living and working there to make use of public transport, they don't use it because it doesn't exist, so because they don't use it it doesn't get built?
You didn't address this Planner1...
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23-09-2018, 04:46   #87
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You didn't address this Planner1...
Yes I did in the first part of post #84.

Also post #74 mentioned that trial bus services had been provided, but had not been used, so have been withdrawn.
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Last edited by Planner1; 23-09-2018 at 04:56.
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23-09-2018, 08:54   #88
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Originally Posted by Planner1 View Post
Yes I did in the first part of post #84.

Also post #74 mentioned that trial bus services had been provided, but had not been used, so have been withdrawn.
You talked about making a business case generally.

You didn't talk about your circular argument though.

No business case can be made because people don't use public transport from that location... I think you might even have said "they all have cars".
But of course they have cars and of course they don't use public transport. At the moment they have no choice.
So if you use that lack of choice as an argument to claim there is no business case then it's circular.

The trial might be relevant though, but... details?
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23-09-2018, 10:17   #89
Annie Bynnol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
You talked about making a business case generally.

You didn't talk about your circular argument though.

No business case can be made because people don't use public transport from that location... I think you might even have said "they all have cars".
But of course they have cars and of course they don't use public transport. At the moment they have no choice.
So if you use that lack of choice as an argument to claim there is no business case then it's circular.

The trial might be relevant though, but... details?
Waverley:
Simply put, the current way of doing things(in the sticks) is to evaluate the current situation, make projections from the current situation and evaluate the impact of the new project.
Submissions are then made to Central Government/EU to pay for full scale plans to be drawn up.
Submissions are then made to Central Government/EU money or permission to borrow money.

There insufficient demand from either residential(population way too small) or commercial(far too small a workforce and demand at specific times). The developers are also not very forthcoming with releasing land for a very large P+R. As a guide the newest station in the are is Ilkeston pop. 40 000 and P+R.

Future demand will increase but figures are not seen to justify even a full scale plan-yet.
But things change:
The developers could pay for the plan.
When the passenger usage figures for the new half-hourly Worksop service come in it might encourage a review.
A new Nottingham/Worksop/Sheffield train service is possible after the Sheffield Station rebuild.
If Tram-train works it could be introduced on a quite dramatic scale linking with Rotherham, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield on existing lines.

Unfortunately the Government are very unlikely to release money or allow borrowing particularly as there has been considerable, expensive recent detailed work done on the abandoned Southern bus corridor route.

Local priority for heavy rail is to ensure the Hope Valley scheme starts- announcement soon.
Railway priority has unfortunately changed yet again with everything now having to be "HS2 ready"- this will impact the rebuilding of the route from Chesterfield into Sheffield, Sheffield Station South approach, platforms and electrification.
AND for those interested in Waverley a recent rediscovery of the importance of the Beighton route in enabling the building and operation of HS2 and local services.
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23-09-2018, 14:52   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie Bynnol View Post
Waverley:
Simply put, the current way of doing things(in the sticks) is to evaluate the current situation, make projections from the current situation and evaluate the impact of the new project.
Submissions are then made to Central Government/EU to pay for full scale plans to be drawn up.
Submissions are then made to Central Government/EU money or permission to borrow money.

There insufficient demand from either residential(population way too small) or commercial(far too small a workforce and demand at specific times). The developers are also not very forthcoming with releasing land for a very large P+R. As a guide the newest station in the are is Ilkeston pop. 40 000 and P+R.

Future demand will increase but figures are not seen to justify even a full scale plan-yet.
But things change:
The developers could pay for the plan.
When the passenger usage figures for the new half-hourly Worksop service come in it might encourage a review.
A new Nottingham/Worksop/Sheffield train service is possible after the Sheffield Station rebuild.
If Tram-train works it could be introduced on a quite dramatic scale linking with Rotherham, Barnsley, Meadowhall and Sheffield on existing lines.

Unfortunately the Government are very unlikely to release money or allow borrowing particularly as there has been considerable, expensive recent detailed work done on the abandoned Southern bus corridor route.

Local priority for heavy rail is to ensure the Hope Valley scheme starts- announcement soon.
Railway priority has unfortunately changed yet again with everything now having to be "HS2 ready"- this will impact the rebuilding of the route from Chesterfield into Sheffield, Sheffield Station South approach, platforms and electrification.
AND for those interested in Waverley a recent rediscovery of the importance of the Beighton route in enabling the building and operation of HS2 and local services.
The only way, it appears, that these things work is where there’s a relationship between two private companies - the employer and a public transport provider. The partnership between Stagecoach in Barnsley and XPO works well. Of course it has its own unique context - it helps that they have large shifts with the staff coming from a few densely populated areas.
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