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26-08-2017, 11:59   #21
Hairyloon
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
It's the only power we actually have...
No it is not.We could, for example rally together and help the victims to challenge their abusers in the courts.
There is, I think, plenty of scope for it, but I've not heard tale of any attempts.
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26-08-2017, 12:28   #22
dutch
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Tories attitude is if someone is mentally disabled they can always be taught to mop the floor and clean the toilet.
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26-08-2017, 13:50   #23
Hairyloon
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Tories attitude is if someone is mentally disabled they can always be taught to mop the floor and clean the toilet.
We should count ourselves lucky that they've not met Professor Hawking...
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26-08-2017, 13:52   #24
tinfoilhat
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Originally Posted by Mister M View Post
The 2,380 people who died were figures from the DWP, which they fought tooth & nail to keep confidential, but IIRC were forced by the courts & the Information Commissioner to publish.
I'm sure I read somewhere that the DWP have now stopped collecting such data.
Did they die from hunger or neglect, did they top themselves? What's happened in the previous years or the years that followed?

As I said it's a shocking figure but one with little context.
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26-08-2017, 13:58   #25
Hairyloon
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Originally Posted by tinfoilhat View Post
As I said it's a shocking figure but one with little context.
It is, but the effort (and cost to the taxpayer) that they put into trying to keep them secret gives it a sort of context.
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26-08-2017, 13:59   #26
tinfoilhat
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Originally Posted by Hairyloon View Post
It is, but the effort (and cost to the taxpayer) that they put into trying to keep them secret gives it a sort of context.
That's a valid point.
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26-08-2017, 15:40   #27
Anna B
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Originally Posted by Hairyloon View Post
No it is not.We could, for example rally together and help the victims to challenge their abusers in the courts.
There is, I think, plenty of scope for it, but I've not heard tale of any attempts.
This is happening. There have been a lot of rallies and protests but they rarely make the mainstream media. Likewise, loads of court cases, and they seem to mostly find in favour of the disabled person. Even courts / magistrates etc have objected on many occasions to the unnecessary cases being put before them in the first place.

How much all this costs doesn't bear thinking about.[COLOR="Silver"]

Last edited by Anna B; 26-08-2017 at 16:26.
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26-08-2017, 18:09   #28
Weazel2006
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I have worked for a charity who take vulnerable people on as volunteers, their main expense for said people is one dinner once a week. These people generate thousands a month for the charity with their labour. Most of the volunteers have now been there years and not moved an inch forward because without them the number coming through the door won't allow it to continue operation, so they are literally not being given the help and support as suggested by what the news prints.

Some of these people have mental health issues including autism and the company is payed 70 pounds per day, per person. Now for a charity not raking it in that comes in to a nice little earner, any wonder they are still there now?.

There is alot of this helping the disabled into work hype going on, but the reality is, it's mostly just another numbers exercise with nice loopholes to make money from.

When genuine change and help was suggested I ended up as a mostly one man crew and criticised when it was taking longer to implement and was then distanced from the charity. In stark contrast more money goes to the management than the disabled it supposes to help, go figure.
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Last edited by Weazel2006; 26-08-2017 at 18:12.
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26-08-2017, 20:12   #29
Hairyloon
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Originally Posted by Anna B View Post
Likewise, loads of court cases, and they seem to mostly find in favour of the disabled person.
I don't mean fighting to overturn the bad decisions, I mean fighting to seek damages consequent upon those decisions.

Some of these case I am hearing about, if true, are misfeasance and the victims have may have a claim against the officers making those decisions.
And the length of time these things are taking very likely breaches Article Six of the European Human Rights Convention.

---------- Post added 26-08-2017 at 19:14 ----------

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Originally Posted by Weazel2006 View Post
When genuine change and help was suggested I ended up as a mostly one man crew and criticised when it was taking longer to implement and was then distanced from the charity. In stark contrast more money goes to the management than the disabled it supposes to help, go figure.
There is an answer to that: we should round up ateam to set up and do it better.
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26-08-2017, 23:26   #30
Anna B
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[QUOTE=Hairyloon;11714628]I don't mean fighting to overturn the bad decisions, I mean fighting to seek damages consequent upon those decisions.

Some of these case I am hearing about, if true, are misfeasance and the victims have may have a claim against the officers making those decisions.
And the length of time these things are taking very likely breaches Article Six of the European Human Rights Convention.[COLOR="Silver"]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___-___

These people are sick. The stress involved in just getting the benefits they are entitled to overwhelms some of them, many give up because they just can't endure it. I doubt they have either the appetite or stamina for yet another court case. They are also amongst the poorest and most vulnerable in society, so no clout and no money for protracted legal arguments.
More and more these days, justice is only for the rich, confident and well connected.

Last edited by Anna B; 26-08-2017 at 23:28.
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26-08-2017, 23:39   #31
Hairyloon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna B View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairyloon View Post
I don't mean fighting to overturn the bad decisions, I mean fighting to seek damages consequent upon those decisions.

Some of these case I am hearing about, if true, are misfeasance and the victims have may have a claim against the officers making those decisions.
And the length of time these things are taking very likely breaches Article Six of the European Human Rights Convention.
These people are sick. The stress involved in just getting the benefits they are entitled to overwhelms some of them, many give up because they just can't endure it. I doubt they have either the appetite or stamina for yet another court case. They are also amongst the poorest and most vulnerable in society, so no clout and no money for protracted legal arguments.
You missed the bit about "rally together and help..."?
Oh sorry no, you thought I meant go out and wave flags.

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More and more these days, justice is only for the rich, confident and well connected.
It is there*, if you can be bothered to look for it.


{* sometimes}
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27-08-2017, 00:59   #32
Anna B
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Originally Posted by Hairyloon View Post
You missed the bit about "rally together and help..."?
Oh sorry no, you thought I meant go out and wave flags.



It is there*, if you can be bothered to look for it.


{* sometimes}
Rally together and help? Do you mean the sick should help each other or people in general should help? A big part of the problem is that disabled people are 'tolerated' and even that attitude is changing for the worst. Everything now seems to be measured in money, and the disabled are just seen as a drain on resources.

Justice: No it's not always there. And unless it's a criminal case which qualifies for legal aid it has to be paid for and is extremely expensive.
I also take issue with the the phrase 'if you can be bothered,' which makes it sound like laziness. Again these are often very sick people who are struggling to deal with the basic necessities in life, without the added burden of energy sapping court cases.
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27-08-2017, 01:08   #33
El Cid
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Originally Posted by dutch View Post
Tories attitude is if someone is mentally disabled they can always be taught to mop the floor and clean the toilet.
What type of work do you think they should do?

What work gives us :-

social contacts and support
a way of structuring and occupying our time
physically and mental activity
an opportunity to develop and use skills
social status
a sense of identity and personal achievement
money and other resources needed for material well-being.

Studies show that work is generally good for health. As well as a financial reward, it gives many of us self-esteem, companionship and status.

There is good evidence that being out of work or 'workless' is bad for your health.

People who are unemployed :-

have poorer physical and mental health overall
consult their GP more
are more likely to be admitted to hospital
have higher death rates

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/usefulresou...oodforyou.aspx
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27-08-2017, 01:21   #34
Hairyloon
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Originally Posted by Anna B View Post
Rally together and help? Do you mean the sick should help each other or people in general should help?
If half the effort that goes into bemoaning the poor deal for the disabled went instead into organising the help they need, then they would be that much better off. All you're giving me here is excuses.

Quote:
A big part of the problem is that disabled people are 'tolerated' and even that attitude is changing for the worst. Everything now seems to be measured in money, and the disabled are just seen as a drain on resources.
And yet, just a few posts up, there is tell of a "charity" that's taking money hand over fist yet not doing being a lot of help...

Quote:
Justice: No it's not always there. And unless it's a criminal case which qualifies for legal aid it has to be paid for and is extremely expensive.
If they are as poor as you claim, then they should be exempt from the court fees which just leaves the question of representation and one can always represent oneself...
Which raises an interesting question: how would a court cope if someone with a severe mental disability brought a case to court without representation?
They would surely be obliged to make reasonable adjustments for that disability...

Last edited by Hairyloon; 27-08-2017 at 01:27.
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27-08-2017, 02:43   #35
I1L2T3
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Because they can only possibly think about one thing at once.
Well that is precisely the problem and what I've spent 7 years arguing on here.

Governments do not do joined-up planning. If cuts are made in one service then pressure increases on another service. Cut support in one area and on paper yes money has been saved but then the costs in other service increases. But there is no way of measuring that impact in fiscal terms. Nobody can predict who many disabled people will lose their jobs or suffer other physical and maybe mental health issues once support is withdrawn or reduced.

The government knows this of course.

The tragedy is that we as a country have let it happen. We've allowed disabled people to become a target, and labelled on masse as scroungers. How sad and how unfair.
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27-08-2017, 02:55   #36
Anna B
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Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
What type of work do you think they should do?

What work gives us :-

social contacts and support
a way of structuring and occupying our time
physically and mental activity
an opportunity to develop and use skills
social status
a sense of identity and personal achievement
money and other resources needed for material well-being.

Studies show that work is generally good for health. As well as a financial reward, it gives many of us self-esteem, companionship and status.

There is good evidence that being out of work or 'workless' is bad for your health.

People who are unemployed :-

have poorer physical and mental health overall
consult their GP more
are more likely to be admitted to hospital
have higher death rates

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/usefulresou...oodforyou.aspx
I'd agree with most of that, which begs the question why such places as Remploy were shut down? Nothing since has been able to make up the shortfall.
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27-08-2017, 08:30   #37
Ms Macbeth
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Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
What type of work do you think they should do?

What work gives us :-

social contacts and support
a way of structuring and occupying our time
physically and mental activity
an opportunity to develop and use skills
social status
a sense of identity and personal achievement
money and other resources needed for material well-being.

Studies show that work is generally good for health. As well as a financial reward, it gives many of us self-esteem, companionship and status.

There is good evidence that being out of work or 'workless' is bad for your health.

People who are unemployed :-

have poorer physical and mental health overall
consult their GP more
are more likely to be admitted to hospital
have higher death rates

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/usefulresou...oodforyou.aspx
Perhaps Remploy should not have been closed. I worked as a wages clerk for Remploy in one of their Scottish factories back in the 60s. People with a wide range of disabilities were employed there. Although equalities legislation has necessarily moved forward a great deal, some of my former colleagues would have had little chance of finding alternative employment.

It was considered paternalistic and outdated. However, it did offer paid work, in a safe environment. Surely that's a better option than being isolated, and existing solely on benefits. It obviously wouldn't be for everyone with a disability, but it could have remained as one of the options.
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27-08-2017, 08:57   #38
Cyclone
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Originally Posted by Hairyloon View Post
If half the effort that goes into bemoaning the poor deal for the disabled went instead into organising the help they need, then they would be that much better off. All you're giving me here is excuses.
So you're saying that instead of "moaning" about how the government is screwing people over. Private citizens should instead go out to fix it?

We pay taxes for a reason you know, it's not so that we can then go and fix social problems using the money that is left.
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27-08-2017, 09:12   #39
El Cid
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Originally Posted by Anna B View Post
I'd agree with most of that, which begs the question why such places as Remploy were shut down? Nothing since has been able to make up the shortfall.
There is no reason why some could not do ordinary jobs, I would not have closed Remploy.
With the minimum wage increasing, employers are trying the squeeze the last minute out of each employee. Employers should get a 2 year tax break if they employ people that have some sort of disability.
I see no reason why it should be the hard working poor, that are the only ones doing the dirty jobs.
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27-08-2017, 10:37   #40
Hairyloon
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Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
So you're saying that instead of "moaning" about how the government is screwing people over. Private citizens should instead go out to fix it?
Why not do both? Let's be honest, we do all enjoy moaning.
The bottom line is that if society cannot be bothered to find the decent people and get them into parliament then it will get the government that it deserves.

Quote:
We pay taxes for a reason you know, it's not so that we can then go and fix social problems using the money that is left.
I've already explained that it should not take a lot (if any) to prime the pump, so to speak: after the first few cases the next can be funded the money won off the government...
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