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The end of the Labour party

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View Poll Results: Where will Labour be a year from now?
Intact with Jeremy Corbyn in charge 56 32.94%
Intact with somebody else in charge 20 11.76%
Split with Corbyn running the remains of Labour 32 18.82%
Split with Corbyn running a break-away party 9 5.29%
The matter will still be unresolved 21 12.35%
The whole party will collapse 26 15.29%
Something I haven't thought of 6 3.53%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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30-08-2016, 17:37   #41
Solomon1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Shaw View Post
You'll find that accuracy largely negates accusations of defamation
Being a critic of Israeli policy in Palestine

Does not make ANYONE anti-semitic

Desperate and sad attempts to mud-sling

A decent man
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30-08-2016, 17:38   #42
Robin-H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Shaw View Post
It was indeed correct. Labour used to be anti-semitic [= against discrimination aimed at Jews]; that seems no longer to be the case.
Ah yes sorry my mistake. I got confused by the double negative and thought it meant the opposite for some reason.

You're right, the anti antisemetic lot are now coming out of the woodwork. A sad state of affairs (despite what some deluded people might claim).
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30-08-2016, 17:40   #43
Jeffrey Shaw
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Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
A decent man
Even if so, he might now prove to be the last leader that the Labour Party ever has. Does that not give you cause for concern?
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30-08-2016, 17:40   #44
Solomon1
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Being followed about it would seem

I'll take it as a compliment
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30-08-2016, 17:42   #45
Jeffrey Shaw
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Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
Being followed about it would seem

I'll take it as a compliment
I don't understand; please explain what you mean.
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30-08-2016, 19:18   #46
biotechpete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Shaw View Post
It was indeed correct. Labour used to be anti-semitic [= against discrimination aimed at Jews]; that seems no longer to be the case.
I'm confused. Anti-semitism = hostility or prejudice against Jews
Anti-anti-semitism = against discrimination aimed at Jews.

So you would complain about the anti-anti-semites if you were prejudiced against Jews. Labour have always harboured borderline or actual anti-semites.
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30-08-2016, 19:24   #47
Alan Hartley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
Being a critic of Israeli policy in Palestine

Does not make ANYONE anti-semitic

Desperate and sad attempts to mud-sling

A decent man
Genuine question. Is it the device you're using that is making you

post

like

this

?

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30-08-2016, 19:27   #48
Mister M
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
Having recently been compelled by circumstances which I won't go into, to spend exactly 3 days thinking about my dislike of Jeremy Corbyn, I still don't like him.
First time in coming up on 3 years as a Forum member, that I have found it necessary to spend 3 days in silent contemplation.

I have however developed a dislike of Owen Smith which is comparable in its intensity. I've come to believe that he is somebody who doesn't believe in democracy.
He's in the process of trying to remove a democratically elected leader from the Labour party. Much as I would like the democratically elected leader of the Labour party removed, it's a rather undemocratic thing to happen.
In a similar vain, he's wants to overturn the democratic will of the people by ignoring the EU referendum result.
Add to that, based on his record he in no way believes in the bulk of the policy which he now stands on, and you get a pretty good overview of the man.

Then we come back to Mr Corbyn. Now that he's "lost" the Brexit vote (by this I mean I suspect that he got the result he secretly wanted, not that he was responsible for the result); I think he believes the bulk of what he says.
Not the "kinder gentler politics" rubbish. I don't think he believes that. He's clearly to my mind not kinder or gentler, and if anything I think he's less honest, than any other mainstream politician. But I think he does believe in the policy platform on which he stands. This is a good thing, even though I personally could not agree with him less.

I remain, above all, extremely concerned by the threat to political discourse, democracy, liberty and all the things which we (across the political spectrum) hold most dear; posed by the fact that there is an extremely nasty group of Corbyn supporters on the loose who are using extreme tactics to intimidate Mr Corbyn's opponents into submission rather than using reason and proper process to achieve their goals. This group, I'm sure, is a small minority of Corbyn supporters, but they are not small enough in number to ignore.
There is no evidence that this nasty group are in any way linked to Mr Corbyn or his team, therefore I do not suggest that he is in any way in command of these extremely bad people. But he has been unable by words or actions to stop them, or even slow them down. That's pretty scary. They proclaim devotion to him, but they carry on despite his instruction not to. They must on some level believe that they are serving him, so it must be possible for him to find the words to get them to stop.
I would encourage Mr Corbyn to redouble his efforts on this matter as a matter of the utmost urgency. I make no apology for making my own inferences, which I shall not voice here, as to why a man in Mr Corbyn's position might have chosen not to do so already.

As I find both prospective leaders of the Labour party unacceptable, even as leader of the opposition, it is my sincere hope, that the Labour party is destroyed by the election process. I shall miss it, as it was useful to have the voices of the public sector unions so forcefully put in parliament. It would be a great shame to see this 100 year old institution, with a great deal to be proud of from its history destroyed. However, given the 2 leadership options on the table it is clear that the end of the party is the least worst option.
How did Mr Corbyn lose the Brexit vote if, in your view, he got the result he secretly wanted?
According to polling almost twice as many Labour voters picked Remain over Leave. The only party to have most of its supporters oppose its leaderís view was the Conservatives. Not that that would lead you to the conclusion that that meant it was the end of the Conservative Party.
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30-08-2016, 19:28   #49
Santo
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Originally Posted by biotechpete View Post
I'm confused. Anti-semitism = hostility or prejudice against Jews
Anti-anti-semitism = against discrimination aimed at Jews.

So you would complain about the anti-anti-semites if you were prejudiced against Jews. Labour have always harboured borderline or actual anti-semites.
I would agree. Jeff's post doesn't make any sense.

Antisemitism does not mean against hostility towards Jews but one must conclude Jeff thinks Semitism means hostilty towards Jews.

It doesn't Jeff.

---------- Post added 30-08-2016 at 19:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Shaw View Post
It was indeed correct. Labour used to be anti-semitic [= against discrimination aimed at Jews]; that seems no longer to be the case.
What sort of gobbledygook is this?

Last edited by Santo; 30-08-2016 at 19:34.
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30-08-2016, 21:58   #50
unbeliever
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Semite is a racial term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
It has a complicated history, but to a first approximation it's white people from the middle-east.

This is all technicality though and the term anti-semitism has evolved (based on a very poor approximation that the Jews are Semites and the Semites are Jews) to mean anti-Jews.
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30-08-2016, 22:05   #51
Santo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
Semite is a racial term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
It has a complicated history, but to a first approximation it's white people from the middle-east.

This is all technicality though and the term anti-semitism has evolved (based on a very poor approximation that the Jews are Semites and the Semites are Jews) to mean anti-Jews.
Can you fathom what Jeff means?
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30-08-2016, 22:11   #52
Solomon1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santo View Post
Can you fathom what Jeff means?
It is obvious to all what Jeff means

But it cannot be said of Jeremy Corbyn

As he clearly explains here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKtTpDvnrg

Jeff, could you watch the above please

Am interested in your subsequent opinion

---------- Post added 30-08-2016 at 22:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister M View Post
According to polling almost twice as many Labour voters picked Remain over Leave. The only party to have most of its supporters oppose its leaderís view was the Conservatives. Not that that would lead you to the conclusion that that meant it was the end of the Conservative Party.
People keep conveniently forgetting this part!
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30-08-2016, 22:13   #53
unbeliever
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Originally Posted by Santo View Post
Can you fathom what Jeff means?
It's just a misunderstanding as far as I can tell. Either he's misunderstood the term, or the post wasn't intended to say what were reading it as.
Either way, I think there's a consensus as to what the term means on the thread now.

Ardent Socialists tend to sympathise with those they see as the down-trodden and assume that they're the good guys. No terrorists, only freedom-fighters and so on. They also demonise the other side. Black and white thinking I suppose. It's kind of childish in my view.
In the 50's and early 60's Socialists were generally sympathetic with the Jews, then Israel started standing up for itself rather impressively, won the six-day way war and the Jews lost their weak victim image. The "Palestinians" became the weak victims worthy of sympathy and could do no wrong, and Israel (and thereby the Jews in general) became the "Baddies" in the new Socialist world-view.

This is all of course a crude opinion on the group-think trends of the socialist movement and not intended as a mind-reading recipe for any socialist one comes across.

Last edited by unbeliever; 30-08-2016 at 22:19.
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30-08-2016, 22:15   #54
Solomon1
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Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post
It's kind of childish in my view
Are you saying the genocide of Palestinians is childish, unbeliever?
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30-08-2016, 22:17   #55
Santo
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Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
Are you saying the genocide of Palestinians is childish, unbeliever?
Are you claiming there has been a genocide?
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30-08-2016, 22:22   #56
Solomon1
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Originally Posted by Santo View Post
Are you claiming there has been a genocide?
Yes I am Santo

And it is ongoing

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-9687994.html
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30-08-2016, 22:25   #57
tinfoilhat
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Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
I never knew sol - and sadly that 2014 article isn't going to clear things up. How many palistinians have been killed this year by Israeli security forces?
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30-08-2016, 22:26   #58
Solomon1
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Originally Posted by tinfoilhat View Post
I never knew sol - and sadly that 2014 article isn't going to clear things up. How many palistinians have been killed this year by Israeli security forces?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-5-months-ngo/
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30-08-2016, 22:30   #59
Santo
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Originally Posted by Solomon1 View Post
The Indy? I was expecting something from outside the MSM since you regularly accuse them of bias when it suits.

Your hypocrisy is worth no more of my time.
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30-08-2016, 22:35   #60
unbeliever
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Civilian casualties in war or military action are a great tragedy which we should all seek to avoid.
However calling it "genocide" is profoundly wrong, and I must object.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention
Genocide is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

Israel has been in control of the west bank and gaza since 1967, almost 50 years, during which time the standard of living, life expectancy and civil rights of the people living there have been dramatically enhanced. They've also experienced massive population growth.

If Israel wanted to destroy the "Palestinians", they've have been dead for decades. Their situation is unsatisfactory, as it has been since Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq rejected the 1948 UN mandate for Palestine and instead attempted to "drive the Jews into the sea". Fortunately they failed but we've been living with the mess they created ever since. If not for this, there'd have been a state of Palestine for 70 years now.

The attempts to place all the blame for the current situation on Israel are ridiculous. Although I do not contend that they are blameless. When such emphatic, ignorant and unjustified hatred is directed at Israel apparently for making some mistakes whilst surviving multiple existential crises; people naturally speculate about where such cognitive dissonance arises from.

Last edited by unbeliever; 30-08-2016 at 22:40.
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