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22-12-2006, 06:53   #61
angle20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyhippy
Encarta quotes Camp Commandant Rudolf Hoess (no umlauts I'm afraid) as stating a minimum of 2.5 million deaths at Auschwitz, never mind the other camps.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...Auschwitz.html
I believe the statement by Hoess was made under duress and is not regarded as reliable. The museum authorities would have taken account of this in deciding to publish a maximum figure of 1 million.
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22-12-2006, 08:19   #62
plekhanov
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angle20 why are you so obsessed with quibbling over the number of people murdered by the Nazis?

It is an undeniable historical fact that the Nazi's had a policy of ethnically cleansing 'the Reich' of people they defined as undesirable, ie. Jews, Romanies, Homosexuals, Socialists and basically anybody who opposed or upset them, and that this later developed into a policy of committing genocide against these groups.

What difference does it make to anything today the precise number of millions of innocent people murdered? Don't you think that once the figures are up into the millions we can just accept that the Nazi holocaust was a monstrous act of barbarism and move on to trying to learn lessons from it rather than hiding behind arguments about figures?
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22-12-2006, 09:30   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plekhanov
angle20 why are you so obsessed with quibbling over the number of people murdered by the Nazis?

It is an undeniable historical fact that the Nazi's had a policy of ethnically cleansing 'the Reich' of people they defined as undesirable, ie. Jews, Romanies, Homosexuals, Socialists and basically anybody who opposed or upset them, and that this later developed into a policy of committing genocide against these groups.

What difference does it make to anything today the precise number of millions of innocent people murdered? Don't you think that once the figures are up into the millions we can just accept that the Nazi holocaust was a monstrous act of barbarism and move on to trying to learn lessons from it rather than hiding behind arguments about figures?
I'd asked myself the same question about angle20's postings about this - and find it increasingly hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that she/he is of the same mindset as Mr Griffin, who famously referred to the 'Holohoax' and went on to say -
'' I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.''
I wonder, angle20, if there's some other explanation for your apparent reluctance to accept that the Holocaust happened and that millions were murdered. There may of course be some perfectly reasonable rationale for your failure so far to acknowledge the enormity of the crime. I'm sure it would make interesting reading.
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22-12-2006, 09:47   #64
Martin Dust
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Surely even one person is one too many.
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22-12-2006, 09:57   #65
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Instead of quibbling over numbers (some quibble, some numbers, one might add) perhaps we ought to focus instead upon the uses to which the Holocaust is now put. Now if it is is used as a sobering and salutary lesson in the dangers of extreme ethnic intolerance and chauvinism, all well and good. However, as Norman Finkelstein has said in numerous articles, it is now also being used for other purposes which are far less noble, not least of which relate to support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine question, i.e. to give to Israel an unassailable high moral ground. Thus the chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust in the UK is none other than the ardent Zionist Greville Janner, who has been tireless in his defence of Israel but as intolerant as it is possible to be on the issue of Palestinian rights. Whatever lessons the Holocaust has to offer in relation to the dangers of ethnic intolerance, Janner and other Zionists appear to have a blind spot which prevents them from relating these lessons to, for example, the state-sponsored mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Many Zionists are 'expulsions deniers'. So much for the lessons of history.
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Last edited by LordChaverly; 22-12-2006 at 10:16.
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22-12-2006, 10:08   #66
Martin Dust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
Instead of quibbling over numbers (some quibble, some numbers, one might add) perhaps we ought to focus instead upon the uses to which the Holocaust is now put. Now if it is is used as a sobering and salutary lesson in the dangers of extreme ethnic intolerance and chauvinism, all well and good. However, as Norman Finkelstein has said in numerous articles, it is now also being used for other purposes which are far less noble, not least of which relate to support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine question, i.e. to give to Israel an unassailable high moral ground. Thus the chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust in the UK is none other than the ardent Zionist Greville Janner, who has been tireless in his defence of Israel but as intolerant as it is possible to be on the issue of Palestinian rights. Whatever lessons the Holocaust has to offer in relation to the dangers of ethnic intolerence, Janner and other Zionists appear to have a blind spot which prevents them from relating these lessons to, for example, the state-sponsored mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Many Zionists are 'expulsions deniers'. So much for the lessons of history.
Interesting but it's a little more complex than the above.
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22-12-2006, 10:27   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
Instead of quibbling over numbers (some quibble, some numbers, one might add) perhaps we ought to focus instead upon the uses to which the Holocaust is now put. Now if it is is used as a sobering and salutary lesson in the dangers of extreme ethnic intolerance and chauvinism, all well and good. However, as Norman Finkelstein has said in numerous articles, it is now also being used for other purposes which are far less noble, not least of which relate to support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine question, i.e. to give to Israel an unassailable high moral ground. Thus the chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust in the UK is none other than the ardent Zionist Greville Janner, who has been tireless in his defence of Israel but as intolerant as it is possible to be on the issue of Palestinian rights. Whatever lessons the Holocaust has to offer in relation to the dangers of ethnic intolerance, Janner and other Zionists appear to have a blind spot which prevents them from relating these lessons to, for example, the state-sponsored mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948. Many Zionists are 'expulsions deniers'. So much for the lessons of history.
An interesting post LordC which illuminates an aspect of the issue I was previousls unaware of. Ta.
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22-12-2006, 10:36   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Dust
Interesting but it's a little more complex than the above.
In what way?
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22-12-2006, 10:44   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plekhanov
In what way?
In that it can't be explained in one paragraph.
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22-12-2006, 11:10   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
Ex-Soviet sources themselves have to be treated with a great deal of caution. The Soviets tended to include in their estimates of deaths attributable to the Nazis many other deaths attributable to themselves - including for example Soviet citizens and military personnel swallowed up in Stalin's purges. At Nuremberg, they even attributed the deaths of the Polish officers killed in the Katyn massacre to the Nazis, whereas we now know that they were killed by Beria's secret police.

Incidentally, is it not ironic that there is a Holocaust museum in the US (in Washington) but no museum anywhere in the US which commemorates the genocide of the Native Americans.
I AGREE WITH YOU ,WELL DONE LORD
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22-12-2006, 11:14   #71
LordChaverly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Dust
In that it can't be explained in one paragraph.
oh in that case, perhaps I ought to write a book-length work on the subject for you. Err, I've just remembered, someone (who is much better qualified than I) has already done it:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=3
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22-12-2006, 11:32   #72
Martin Dust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
oh in that case, perhaps I ought to write a book-length work on the subject for you. Err, I've just remembered, someone (who is much better qualified than I) has already done it:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=3
I didn't expect a book Lord Just that I find most things can't be explained away in a paragraph or even, in Finklestein's case, a book. It's not really a piece of in depth research though is it? It's more like a long magazine article.

Last edited by Martin Dust; 22-12-2006 at 12:48.
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22-12-2006, 12:29   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaverly
But on this thread we are discussing the court case and the legislation which resulted in Irving being jailed, not the Lipstadt case.
I mentioned it because it helped establish as a matter of record that Irving is a liar and a fraud, and I get a vague impression that you are slightly reluctant to condemn him as vociferously as you do that other liar and fraud, Joan Peters.
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22-12-2006, 18:07   #74
angle20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plekhanov
angle20 why are you so obsessed with quibbling over the number of people murdered by the Nazis?

What difference does it make to anything today the precise number of millions of innocent people murdered? Don't you think that once the figures are up into the millions we can just accept that the Nazi holocaust was a monstrous act of barbarism and move on to trying to learn lessons from it rather than hiding behind arguments about figures?
I'm just seeking to set the record straight. Teabag posed the question: "How about six million historical truths"? As there were quite possibly 'only' 600,000 or so deaths at the largest extermination camp it is rather doubtful that there are "six million historical truths". Similarly, your own assertion (above): "once the figures are up into the millions" is likely to be fallacious. Pay attention in class, plekhanov.

Now, in learning lessons and moving forward it is important to realise that the Holocaust episode is an important moral prop to Jewish thinkers and activists. It underpins the 'anti-semitic' card they produce if anybody questions their activities. There is strong Jewish influence in the neoconservative political school which currently holds sway over the Republican party and the Bush administration in the USA. One Jewish neoconservative figure (amongst a number who circulate around the well- funded think tanks and lobby groups) is a chap called Michael Ledeen. I recently came across an interesting quote from Ledeen's book War on the Terror Masters. The quote is purportedly about America's attitude to Arab states but I think it might be taken as an interesting insight into Jewish attitudes to other peoples:

Quote:
Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity,which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. Seeing America undo traditional societies, they fear us, for they do not wish to be undone. They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existence - our existence, not our politics - threatens their legitimacy. They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission... [emphasis added]
Here (for fun) are some Ledeen quotes, courtesy of Wikipedia:

Quote:
Writing in The Nation, a left-wing magazine, Jack Hubermanm, who describes Leeden as "the most influential and unabashed warmonger of our time", attributes these quotes to Ledeen:[15]

"the level of casualties (in Iraq) is secondary"
"we are a warlike people (Americans)...we love war"
"Change—above all violent change—is the essence of human history"
"the only way to achieve peace is through total war"
"The purpose of total war is to permanently force your will onto another people"
"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business"
As Iran might be the next "small crappy little country" to be thrown against the wall one can understand why President Ahmadinejad might have had an interest in hosting a Holocaust conference.
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22-12-2006, 18:18   #75
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Which confirms what I thought; you refuse to condemn the Holocaust because it's politically inconvenient for you do so, believing as you appear to that it's a convenient 'prop' for Jews to disguise the fact that they want to rule the world. Oh dear.
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22-12-2006, 18:31   #76
angle20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halibut
Which confirms what I thought; you refuse to condemn the Holocaust because it's politically inconvenient for you do so, believing as you appear to that it's a convenient 'prop' for Jews to disguise the fact that they want to rule the world. Oh dear.
A slightly feeble riposte, if I might say so, Halibut. Out of interest, what's your position on neoconservatism?

I also wanted to pick you up on this:
Quote:
I wonder, angle20, if there's some other explanation for your apparent reluctance to accept that the Holocaust happened
Do you have evidence to substantiate this remark?
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22-12-2006, 18:32   #77
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[QUOTE=angle20]I'm just seeking to set the record straight.QUOTE]

This is the usual tactic of holocaust deniers and nazi sympathisers.

Despite all the evidence stacked against them their ideology drives their arguement NOT historical fact. If the facts don't fit then make them up. Only apologists for the nazis dispute the figures of 6 - 9 million. Angle quotes examples of similar atrocities but two wrongs don't make a right.....simple point really.

Arguing against such facist conspiracy theories is pointless to some extent - all we can do is reiterate the historical facts and remember that we are talking about the ending of innocent life. As someone else pointed out, to deny the extermination is to continue the extermination.

I visited Auscwitz twice in the nineties and it makes you reassess (not the figures!) your view of how and why other human beings can act toward other men, women and children in such a barbaric and shameful way.

The use of the word 'fun' in quoting genocide sources from angle (perhaps it is just trolling)...well....... I think I need a stiff drink.
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22-12-2006, 18:37   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20

I also wanted to pick you up on this:

I wonder, angle20, if there's some other explanation for your apparent reluctance to accept that the Holocaust happened


Do you have evidence to substantiate this remark?
The whole tone and direction of your posts has been geared to minimise the event. That and the lack of any condemnation, plus your one-step-away-from-justification viewpoint led me towards the view that you might (hence my use of the word 'apparent') be reluctant to accept that the Nazi regime set out to commit genocide.
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22-12-2006, 18:47   #79
angle20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teabag
Only apologists for the nazis dispute the figures of 6 - 9 million.
I have been quite precise and measured in the things I have said on this topic. If you are confident of a figure of "6 - 9 million" would you like to give a suggested breakdown of this?

I said "for fun" merely in case someone questioned the authenticity of a Wikipedia source. I was not of course referring to the Holocaust at this point (I take it that you regard what has happened in Iraq as genocide).
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23-12-2006, 00:40   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angle20
I have been quite precise and measured in the things I have said on this topic. If you are confident of a figure of "6 - 9 million" would you like to give a suggested breakdown of this?

I said "for fun" merely in case someone questioned the authenticity of a Wikipedia source. I was not of course referring to the Holocaust at this point (I take it that you regard what has happened in Iraq as genocide).
All the figures are of historical fact - if you are in denial about the events in Europe between 1933 and 1945, I can recommend that you go to the nearest bookshop and purchase any history textbook on those events and it will concur with what I posted.

As I said in my previous post, two wrongs don't make a right..simple point

I recommend reading Kershaw - head of history at Sheffield University and any of his books on the period, he is generally regarded as one of the world authorities - scholarly.
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